From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Sep 9 18:29:13 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA08235 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 18:29:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA28998 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 18:29:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA29487 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA29474 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:06:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA05792 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id PAA23480 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:05:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970909150643.006c52dc@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:08:50 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: William Sweet (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: cfp Idealism Conference 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William Sweet (by way of dom lopes ) X-Status: Status: RO Bosanquet and the Legacy of British Idealism September 1 and 2, 1999, Manchester College, Oxford British Society for the History of Philosophy and the Bradley Society Perhaps more than any other philosopher associated with British Idealism, Bernard Bosanquet made contributions to the study of ethics and political philosophy, logic, metaphysics, aesthetics, and to social work and adult education. Among the issues to be addressed at this conference are those of the legacy of this idealism and its relation to philosophers outside of the idealist `school'(e.g., Russell, Wittgenstein), to philosophers of succeeding generations in Britain (e.g., Collingwood, Oakeshott, Harris) in the Anglo-American world (e.g., Royce, E. Jordan, Whitehead) and on the European continent (e.g., Croce, Gentile, Husserl), and to such disciplines as sociology, aesthetics, psychology, metaphysics, political philosophy, logic, and epistemology. The number of papers to be accepted for presentation at the conference will be limited to ensure as much breadth as possible and ample time for discussion. Papers not selected for presentation will, however, be considered for inclusion what is hoped to be a volume of critical essays on the conference theme, to be published following the conference. Proposals for papers are due October 1, 1998, Papers are due December 15, 1998. Proposals and papers should be sent to : Professor William Sweet, St Francis Xavier University, Antigonish, Nova Scotia B2G 2W5 Canada tel: 1 902 867 2341; fax 1 902 867 3243; e-mail: wsweet@stfx.ca __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Sep 23 17:41:58 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA01001 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA25941 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA00487 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA00477 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:40:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from VMSD.CSD.MU.EDU (vmsd.csd.mu.edu [134.48.20.5]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA30115 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from barnes.art.mu.edu by vms.csd.mu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #14229) id <01INZFM9CXQA8Y5PQS@vms.csd.mu.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:39:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:39:23 -0700 From: "Susan B. Barnes / Curtis L. Carter" Subject: Aesthetics: Annual Meeting Hotel Reservations To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <342828FB.7B1B@vms.csd.mu.edu> Organization: American Society for Aesthetics MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-URL: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl/net/aesthetics-list.html Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Susan B. Barnes / Curtis L. Carter" Status: O To all ASA 55th Annual Meeting Registrants: Please remember that the deadline for hotel reservations at the Inn at Loretto is MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 1997. If you plan to reserve a room and have not done so already, please contact-- Registrar, The Inn at Loretto 211 Old Santa Fe Trail Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 800-727-5531 or 505-988-5531 or FAX 505-984-7988 Looking forward to seeing you in Santa Fe. Curtis L. Carter Secretary/Treasurer __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Sep 23 16:54:24 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id QAA29079 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA04515 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:54:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA29668 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA29661 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.41]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA30048 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id NAA18801 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:17:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970923132249.006f5a50@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:22:49 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: cfp (Re)Soundings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:37:21 -0400 From: "(Re)Soundings WWW Account" Subject: Call for Papers (Re)Soundings: http://www.millersv.edu/~resound CALL FOR PAPERS While materials are accepted at any time, texts submitted by November 1, 1997 will move smoothly into the next publication set. Articles are particularly solicited that take advantage of the multimedia potential of the World Wide Web. While materials are most easily accepted as HTML coded materials, there is no necessity that they be submitted in that format. Hard copy submissions are entirely welcome, as are materials on diskette utilizing either IBM or Macintosh platforms. Materials are peer-reviewed. About (Re)Soundings: (Re)Soundings: A World Wide Web Publication is a collaborative effort among an international group of scholars publishing in electronic form on the Internet. The journal is innovative in comprising music, visual art, and verbal texts while allowing readers to engage these texts with their own multimedia commentary hotbuttons which become part of the journal. The scope of the peer reviewed journal is the humanities. The critical texts should be primarily in English; translations should be supplied for texts in other languages. The multimedia format encourages interaction among traditional disciplines including art, history, literature, and music, while particularly inviting multicultural, ethnic, and women's studies participation. This is an environment in which scholars and artists can create and discuss texts, sharing and building commentary in a variety of media, integrating sound and graphics as well as written materials. Send submissions to: Bonnie Duncan (Re)Soundings Internet Addresses: Department of English resound@marauder.millersv.edu Millersville University Phone: (717) 872-3069 Millersville, Pennsylvania 17551 FAX: (717)871-2446 To view (re)soundings, or for further information, see http://www.millersv.edu/~resound __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Sep 23 10:32:13 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id KAA11736 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:32:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA29938 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id HAA15604 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id HAA15586 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.aber.ac.uk (ultra1.aber.ac.uk [144.124.16.17]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id HAA21511 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:43:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from drapcbece [144.124.168.6] by ultra1.aber.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0xDUJ8-0005vh-00; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:43:14 +0100 X-Sender: dam@pophost.aber.ac.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:28:04 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dam@aber.ac.uk (Dr. Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrafe) Subject: Aesthetics: Call for Papers Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id HAA15587 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dam@aber.ac.uk (Dr. Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrafe) Status: O University of London, Centre for English Studies (School of Advanced Studies) announces a one-day conference The Professions in Contemporary British Drama organised by Dr. Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrafe (Department of Department of Theatre, Film and Television Studies, University of Wales Aberystwyth) Friday 6 March 1998 CALL FOR PAPERS Many books and papers have been written about the members of the working classes as characters in drama; there is, however, not much about * teachers * the medical profession * the legal profession * artists * journalists * the clergy etc. Yet, many plays have been written which feature major characters belonging to those professional areas. Papers are invited which look at the professions in contemporary British drama from various perspectives: which professions dominate, and why? To what extent has the representation of these professions in the theatre been successful? Why has it attracted relatively little academic analysis? What aspects of production and reception in the theatre might usefully be examined with the representation of the professions in mind? Proposed titles and abstracts of no more than 200 words, types or word-processed, should be addressed to Daniel Meyer-Dinkgräfe, Department of Theatre, Film and Television Studies, UWA, 1 Laura Place Aberystwyth Ceredigion SY23 2AU. Fax 01970 622831; email dam@aber.ac.uk Deadline for receipt of abstracts: 15 November 1997. This deadline allows for planning the timetable of the conference in time for the December mailing of the Centre for English Studies. *************************************************************** Dr. Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrafe Department of Theatre, Film and Television Studies University of Wales Aberystwyth 1 Laura Place, Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 2AU, UK Tel. ++44 1970 622835 Fax ++44 1970 622831 email: dam@aber.ac.uk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 19:44:37 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA09817 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:44:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA08931 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA19229 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA19214 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:35:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.41]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA06348; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id NAA26532; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:34:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970922134032.0069f540@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:40:32 -0500 To: Jacek Borowski , aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Re: Aesthetics: WWW pages as aesthetical objects In-Reply-To: <34212E9A.B601B8CE@software.com.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O Jaceck i don't know of anything off hand. have you tried an Alta Vista search? let me know if you find anything and i'll create the links. dom lopes At 15:37 9.18.97 +0200, Jacek Borowski wrote: >After sending my first e-mail I realised that I wasnt very precise... >So, once again. I am looking for any serious, aestheticals texts about >WWW pages. In other words I would like to know if there are any texts >treating WWW pages as aesthetical objects, or from aesthetical point of >view. And I would be extremly grateful if you you show me where I can >find (on-line or off-line) sources about this topic > >Sorry for previous misunderstanding. > >Sincerely yours > >Jacek Borowski > >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 17:07:13 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA07108 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA10293 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:07:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA14068 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA14048 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1w-int.prodigy.net (pimout1-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.18.53]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA04051 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:40:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from jvancamp (port72.alam.prodigy.net [204.237.176.72]) by pimout1-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA90468 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:38:30 -0400 Message-ID: <34269D54.87B@csulb.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:31:16 -0700 From: "Julie C. Van Camp" Organization: California State University, Long Beach X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Southern California Philosophy Conference--10/25/97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Julie C. Van Camp" Status: O Philosophers in southern California are encouraged to attend the Second Annual Southern California Philosophy Conference on Saturday, October 25, 1997, at UC Irvine. The conference program is now available on-line: http://www.hnet.uci.edu/SoCalPhilConf/ The conference was a huge success last year. Everybody who considers themselves a philosopher is welcome -- faculty, students, employed, unemployed, public, etc. It's a great way to meet people with shared interests at minimal expense. Please forward this message to people you think might be interested. -- ================================================ Julie Van Camp, Associate Professor of Philosophy California State University, Long Beach 1250 Bellflower Boulevard Long Beach, CA 90840-2408 http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/ jvancamp@csulb.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 17:31:36 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA23852 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:31:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA03008 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:31:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA12327 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:09:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA12314 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.41]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA09991 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id LAA25775 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:08:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970922110600.006a5428@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:06:00 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Geoffrey Chew (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: new musicology journal (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Geoffrey Chew (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: B.J. Davies In October, the first volume of a new journal will be published in London. Entitled *British Postgraduate Musicology*, the journal is specifically intended as a forum for graduate and recent post-doctoral students in all fields of musicology to present their research and to discuss new ideas. The editors invite articles (up to 4000 words maximum), concise reviews of secondary literature, conference reports and general correspondence. CALL FOR PAPERS We would be very pleased to receive submissions (including from American colleagues) for the next issue; please do encourage your students to contribute work. The journal will be published annually, and the closing date for volume 2 is 31 July 1998. For further information on submitting material and ordering copies, contact the Editor, Benjamin Davies, at British Postgraduate Musicology Wolfson College University of Cambridge CB3 9BB England or by e-mail: bjd22@cam.ac.uk _________________________________________________________________________ In the first issue: ARTICLES * REVIEWS * IMS 1997 CONGRESS REPORT * DIARY * including Musical and cultural sources for Rimsky-Korsakov's Sadko The reception of Grieg in Paris in the light of the Dreyfus Affair Adorno's concept of musique informelle and the music of Wolfgang Rihm Analysing Stravinsky Ideas and ideals in music scholarship ___________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 19:25:09 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA29776 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA08719 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:25:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA22433 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:23:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA22425 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from fwwash.irex.org ([208.140.230.4]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id OAA17045 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:21:27 -0500 (EST) Received: tid PAA11373; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:16:55 -0500 Received: from shollowa.irex.org ([192.168.1.131]) by mail.irex.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA18153; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:20:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199709221920.PAA18153@mail.irex.org> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Courtenay Dunn" Organization: IREX To: Listserv.Posting@mail.irex.org Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:19:44 +0000 X-Distribution: Moderate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: FSA Fellowships in Contemporary Issues Announcement Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Courtenay Dunn" Status: O **********PROGRAM ANNOUNCEMENT**************** Freedom Support Act Fellowships in Contemporary Issues Open Competition for Fellowships in the USA The Government of the United States of America announces an open competition for fellowships in the United States through the United States Information Agency Freedom Support Act Fellowships in Contemporary Issues. The Freedom Support Act Fellowships in Contemporary Issues are developed, funded, and supervised by the United States Information Agency with funds allocated by the Congress of the United States, and administered by the International Research & Exchanges Board (IREX) and the Kennan Institute for Advanced Russian Studies. The Freedom Support Act Fellowships in Contemporary Issues selects highly qualified NIS (1) policymakers, government officials at the national, regional and local levels; (2) leaders and members of non-governmental organizations; (3) practitioners in the public or private sector (trade and investment specialists, foreign affairs specialists, journalists, judges, law enforcement officials, political analysts, managers, and publishers) who are citizens of the New Independent States and are residing in their home country at the time of application and interview for fellowships in the United States. All applicants for Freedom Support Act Fellowships in Contemporary Issues must demonstrate a long-term commitment to the development of democracy, free markets, and civil society in their home countries, have at least three years of professional experience, demonstrate leadership potential in their professions, hold academic degrees equivalent to, if not above, a U.S. Master of Arts or Master of Sciences degree, and have had few or no opportunities to conduct research in the United States. Seventy-five (75) three- and six-month Freedom Support Act Fellowships in Contemporary Issues will be awarded. The majority of fellowships to be awarded are for three months. The application deadline for the Freedom Support Act Fellowships in Contemporary Issues is October 31, 1997. Successful applicants will begin their fellowships in the United States in March 1998. Applications and complete eligibility requirements may be obtained by contacting the International Research & Exchanges Board (IREX) at (202) 628-8188, via e-mail at irex@irex.org, in the NIS at Educational Information Centers or IREX field offices, or by downloading the application from http://www.irex.org/grants/intl/rsepciap/htm __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 22 20:48:24 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA13169 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA09738 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA22499 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA22482 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from fwwash.irex.org ([208.140.230.4]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id OAA32474 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: tid PAA11216; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:15:13 -0500 Received: from shollowa.irex.org ([192.168.1.131]) by mail.irex.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA18090; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:16:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199709221916.PAA18090@mail.irex.org> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Courtenay Dunn" Organization: IREX To: Listserv.Posting@mail.irex.org Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:15:56 +0000 X-Distribution: Moderate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: International listservs Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Courtenay Dunn" Status: O *******PROGRAM ANNOUNCEMENT****** Regional Scholar Exchange Program Open Competition for Fellowships in the USA The Government of the United States of America announces an open competition for fellowships in the United States through the United States Information Agency Regional Scholar Exchange Program. The Regional Scholar Exchange Program is developed, funded and supervised by the United States Information Agency with funds allocated by the Congress of the United States, and administered by the International Research & Exchanges Board (IREX) and the Kennan Institute for Advanced Russian Studies. The Regional Scholar Exchange Program selects highly qualified university faculty and scholars at the early stages of their careers, advanced graduate students pursuing dissertation research, and mid-level faculty (associate professors) in designated fields of the social sciences and humanities who are citizens of the New Independent States and are residing in their home country at the time of application and interview for fellowships at institutions in the United States. All applicants must demonstrate a long-term commitment to the field of higher education and scholarship in their home countries in the social sciences and humanities and either possess or be working toward a Kandidat or Doctor degree at the time of application. Applicants should have published several articles in their field or presented papers at scholarly conferences and must have had few or no opportunities to conduct research in the United States. One hundred (100) Regional Scholar Exchange Program Fellowships will be awarded. IREX and the Kennan Institute will determine the appropriate length of all fellowships. The application deadline for the Regional Scholar Exchange Program is October 31, 1997. Successful applicants will begin their fellowships in the United States in August 1998. Applications and complete eligibility requirements can be obtained by contacting the International Research & Exchange Board (IREX) at (202) 628-8188, via e-mail at irex@irex.org, in the NIS at Educational Information Centers or IREX field offices, or by downloading the application from the site http://www.irex.org/grants/intl/rsepciap.htm __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Sep 18 11:05:38 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id LAA15663 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:05:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA05747 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:05:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id IAA13783 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:37:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id IAA13770 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ibs.net.pl (fw.ibs.net.pl [195.117.123.18]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA27539 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:37:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacek.software.com.pl ([10.10.10.20]) by fw.ibs.net.pl with ESMTP id <11660>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:37:42 +0200 Message-ID: <34212E9A.B601B8CE@software.com.pl> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:37:30 +0200 From: Jacek Borowski Organization: Software X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: WWW pages as aesthetical objects X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Jacek Borowski Status: O After sending my first e-mail I realised that I wasnt very precise... So, once again. I am looking for any serious, aestheticals texts about WWW pages. In other words I would like to know if there are any texts treating WWW pages as aesthetical objects, or from aesthetical point of view. And I would be extremly grateful if you you show me where I can find (on-line or off-line) sources about this topic Sorry for previous misunderstanding. Sincerely yours Jacek Borowski __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Sep 18 06:50:15 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id GAA13366 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA01101 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id EAA10216 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 04:27:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id EAA10209 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 04:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ibs.net.pl (fw.ibs.net.pl [195.117.123.18]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA31161 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 04:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacek.software.com.pl ([10.10.10.20]) by fw.ibs.net.pl with ESMTP id <11657>; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:27:30 +0200 Message-ID: <3420F418.EEF58DA8@software.com.pl> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:27:53 +0200 From: Jacek Borowski Organization: Software X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetical thoughts upon WWW pages X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Jacek Borowski Status: O My name is Jacek Borowski. I have finish philosophy faculty at Warsaw University, Warsaw, Poland. Now I am trying to collect all informations about aesthetical thought upon WWW pages. If you could provide me informations where I can find any publications (on-line or off-line) about this topic I would be very grateful. Sincerely yours Jacek Borowski __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 15 14:03:48 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA18370 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:03:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA14669 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA14099 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA14082 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA07696 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id KAA21518 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:26:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970915102823.006900ec@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:30:52 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: Project Artsvote Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O some folks on the aesthetics list may be interested in checking this out... >Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:44:47 -0700 >From: Nicolau >Reply-To: nik@websciences.org >Organization: UCLA > >To: dlopes@indiana.edu >Subject: Project Artsvote > >If you or you know of anyone concerned with arts finding in the US, >please let them know about > >Project Artsvote > >http://www.bantaba.net/artsvote/ > >Project Artsvote - A petition concerning NEA funding and Campaign >Finance Reform. >The results of which is summarized and e-mailed to thousands of state >and Federal >legislators as well as Radio,TV,Newspapers & Magazines around the world. > > >saludos, > > >nik __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 15 10:32:28 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id KAA12466 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA02397 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:32:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id HAA06808 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id HAA06801 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from metis.salford.ac.uk (metis.salford.ac.uk [146.87.232.15]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id HAA23500 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 25482 invoked by alias); 15 Sep 1997 12:02:41 -0000 Message-ID: <19970915120241.25481.qmail@metis.salford.ac.uk> Received: (qmail 25476 invoked from network); 15 Sep 1997 12:02:40 -0000 Received: from telford-056.salford.ac.uk (HELO Unknown) (146.87.48.56) by metis.salford.ac.uk with SMTP; 15 Sep 1997 12:02:40 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Marcus Ormerod" Organization: University of Salford To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:02:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: (Fwd) Hans Eysenck Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Marcus Ormerod" Status: O ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "Marcus Ormerod" Organization: University of Salford To: architecthetics@mailbase.ac.uk Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:47:59 +0100 Subject: Hans Eysenck Priority: normal Reply-to: architecthetics@mailbase.ac.uk I do not know whether you noticed the obituary for Hans Eysenck who died on September 4 1997. He was a psychologist at the University of London. I came across his work in an article in Psychological Review dated 1941. He looked at an empirical aesthetic formula which took off from the work of Birkhoff. This basically stated that M (the amount of pleasure derived) = O (the amount of order)/ C(The complexity), Eysenck tested Birkhoff's formula on various polygon's to produce a revised formula. Just thought you'd like to know this marcus E-mail me soon.... please ! E-mail me soon.... please ! __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Sep 12 02:44:12 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id CAA15616 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:44:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA04193 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:44:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA17552 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA17544 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:06:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from niflheim.rutgers.edu (niflheim.rutgers.edu [165.230.116.134]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id BAA16753 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from ameskin@localhost) by niflheim.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) id CAA23746 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 02:05:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 2:05:56 EDT From: Aaron Meskin To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: ["Craig Eliason" : Graduate students: CFP "The Aesthetic"] Message-ID: Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Aaron Meskin Status: O Received: from smithers.rutgers.edu (smithers.rutgers.edu [165.230.4.69]) by erebus.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA18171 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:58:33 -0400 Received: (qmail 22053 invoked by alias); 12 Sep 1997 00:57:53 -0000 Delivered-To: ccacc_grad-og@email.rutgers.edu Received: (qmail 22050 invoked by uid 6539); 12 Sep 1997 00:57:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 22037 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1997 00:57:47 -0000 Received: from eden-backend.rutgers.edu (root@165.230.180.132) by smithers.rutgers.edu with SMTP; 12 Sep 1997 00:57:46 -0000 Received: from eliason.rutgers.edu (calloway-a-asy-1.rutgers.edu [165.230.80.69]) by eden-backend.rutgers.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA21342 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709120057.UAA21342@eden-backend.rutgers.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Eliason" To: ccacc_grad@email.rutgers.edu Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:57:15 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Graduate students: CFP "The Aesthetic" X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-ccacc_grad@email.rutgers.edu Precedence: bulk CALL FOR PAPERS - Please pardon cross-posting Center for the Critical Analysis of Contemporary Culture presents T H E A E S T H E T I C : A R T A N D W O R L D Eighth Annual Interdisciplinary Conference for Graduate Scholarship Friday, 5 December 1997 at Rutgers University Sponsored by the Center for the Critical Analysis of Contemporary Culture and the Rutgers Graduate Student Association, the annual Interdisciplinary Conference for Graduate Scholarship provides a national forum for advanced research by graduate students. The forum emphasizes contemporary issues requiring interdisciplinary approaches, and focuses on the subject of this year's work at the Center. C a l l f o r P a p e r s & C r e a t i v e P r o j e c t s This conference seeks to rethink the category of the Aesthetic in our contemporary moment by focusing on the history of the concept, by examining the function of the Aesthetic in a wide variety of cultural and historical contexts, and by investigating the values and limitations of a cultural analysis of aesthetics. We encourage the investigation of a broad range of topics, including but not limited to: The history of aesthetics, and the concept of the aesthetic - The psychology of perception - Formal vs. transformational aesthetics - Aesthetics and epistemology - The aesthetic in scientific discovery - The place of literature - Description and evaluation - The aesthetics in politics, political aesthetics - Conservative and progressive aesthetics - High and popular culture, the middlebrow - Questions of ethics - The media and genres of art - Media and technology - Ritual and dramatic enactments - Aesthetics and the marketplace - The aesthetic and cultural difference - Humor and the aesthetic - The aesthetic in cross-cultural perspective Papers should be 8-10 pages. Please send 4 copies of: your paper, a cover page that includes your address, telephone number, and department affiliation, and a one-paragraph abstract describing your work. Art projects that interpret or address the conference topic should be described in a one-page abstract (please send 4 copies); relevant media (slides, audio/videotapes) should be noted. Panel proposals will also be considered. Paper deadline: November 3, 1997 CCACC/ICGS 8 Bishop Place New Brunswick, NJ 08903 (908) 932-8426 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Sep 24 18:38:25 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA16334 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:38:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA21757 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA17187 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:02:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA17175 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:02:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from VMSD.CSD.MU.EDU (vmsd.csd.mu.edu [134.48.20.5]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA21877 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from barnes.art.mu.edu by vms.csd.mu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #14229) id <01IO0WQ972EE8Y5S2K@vms.csd.mu.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:59:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:59:39 -0700 From: "Susan B. Barnes / Curtis L. Carter" Subject: Aesthetics: ASA Meeting Registration To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <34298D4B.435F@vms.csd.mu.edu> Organization: American Society for Aesthetics MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-URL: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl/net/aesthetics-list.html Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Susan B. Barnes / Curtis L. Carter" Status: O To all planning to attend the ASA 55th Annual Meeting Oct. 29 - Nov. 1: If you have not already done so please mail your registration form and/or membership application early. The deadline is MONDAY, OCTOBER 27. On-site registration will be an additional $25. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact the ASA National Office. Cordially, Curtis L. Carter Secretary/Treasurer __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Sep 26 21:35:18 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA28856 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA32004 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA12786 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:33:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA12776 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from COMPUSERVE (mail.cpsarg.com [200.32.38.131]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA16307 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp-11.str.satlink.com - 209.13.98.17 by cpsarg.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:35:07 -0300 X-Sender: malesso@mail.cpsarg.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Marta Alesso Subject: Aesthetics: Theory of Recepcion Message-ID: <0179c0735001b97COMPUSERVE@cpsarg.com> Date: 26 Sep 1997 21:35:13 -0300 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Marta Alesso Status: O I am interest in Theory of Reception or Aesthetics of Reception, authors as Jauss, Iser, Valdez, etc. I need to interchange publications or bibliografic information. Please, if somebody is working the issue, please write me in spanish or english. Thank you. Marta Alesso. La Pampa. Argentina. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 29 05:07:23 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id FAA11203 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:07:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA19401 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id CAA00344 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 02:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id CAA00337 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 02:37:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id CAA26983 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 02:36:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #13) id ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <3835500@isis.reed.edu> Date: 29 Sep 97 00:36:44 PDT From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Aesthetics: Philosophy-Literature e-list (forwarded from Robert Paul) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O Forwarded Message from "Denis Dutton" Reply-to: constant.force@clear.net.nz >Priority: normal ************************************* Philosophy and Literature, the interdisciplinary journal published by the Johns Hopkins University Press, sponsors an electronic-mail list service for philosophers and literary critics, scholars, and theorists. PHIL-LIT offers news, book announcements, calls for papers, contents of journals, and conference plans. Subscribers post queries, trade inside information and advice, preview drafts of articles and reviews, dispute, congratulate, refute, and defend one another. PHIL-LIT serves as a single source of information and the exchange of ideas--an electronic newsletter run on democratic principles. Like the journal it serves, it owes allegiance to no particular school or style of criticism, and is open to anyone who takes a serious interest in philosophical interpretations of literature, literary investigations of classic works of philosophy, philosophy of language, and literary theory. To subscribe send the following message: SUBSCRIBE PHIL-LIT Your Name (e.g., SUBSCRIBE PHIL-LIT Herman Northrop Frye) And send the message to LISTSERV@POSTAL.TAMU.EDU ****************************************** __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 29 18:03:40 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA26880 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA09917 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA17596 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA17584 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA00219 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id NAA08348 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:10:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970929131853.006f4dbc@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:18:53 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Victor Kocay (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: CSA upcoming conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id NAA17585 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Victor Kocay (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O Canadian Society for Aesthetics CALL FOR PAPERS Fifteenth Annual Conference, University of Ottawa, Ottawa, Ontario May 27-30, 1998 The Canadian Society for Aesthetics invites papers or panel proposals for its 1997 Conference to take place from the 27-30 May as part of the Learned Societies Conference at the University of Ottawa in Ottawa, Ontario. Papers can be on any aspect of aesthetics, broadly construed to include all facets of human engagement with the literary, visual, performing, and other arts. Artists, composers and authors interested in speaking on the creative process are also invited to participate. This year papers are especially welcome on the theme of The Aesthetics of Rationality, the Rationality of Aesthetics. Papers are invited which explore the relation between rational thought and the beautiful (natural or in the arts -- music, dance, painting, drama, or literature, etc.), as well the specific character of the rationality of aesthetics itself. Possible topics would include: Art and Education Beauty and Madness Beauty and Order/Disorder Chaos and Rationality Constraint and Freedom Other topics are invited, including case studies in any of the arts or art education. Completed papers with abstracts, suitable for a 20-25 minute delivery (8-10 pages, double-spaced, 2500 words) and a general abstract (approx. 150 words) should be sent to the CSA Program Coordinator at the following address. no identification should appear on the papers since they will be vetted "blind". Members are encouraged to assemble a panel of three or four members of the Society for special topic sessions or discussions of a recent publication. Detailed proposals for special sessions must include the names and affiliations of all prospective participants and a general abstract (approx. 150 words) making clear the objectives of each session as a whole. Participants must be members of the society. All papers and proposals must reach the Program Coordinator no later than 15 January, 1998. Please address submissions and inquiries to the Program Coordinator as follows: Victor Kocay, Department of Modern Languages, Saint Francis Xavier University, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, B2G 2W5 email: vkocay@stfx.ca fax: (902) 867-5153. Les communications en français doivent être envoyées à: Claude Thérien, 170 Faillon-Est, Montreal (Québec) H2R 1K8 courrier électronique : theriecl@ere.umontreal.ca __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 29 18:04:58 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA27541 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA11171 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA19794 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:05:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA17590 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA03080 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id NAA08363 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:10:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970929131942.006f04bc@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:19:42 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: "r.f.hendry" (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: BSA Northern Region Meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id NAA17591 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "r.f.hendry" (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O British Society for Aesthetics (Northern Region Meeting) Friday 14 November Melville Room, Hatfield College, Durham University 11.00 - 12.30 "Sensation and Representation": Dr. John Hyman (The Queen's College, Oxford) Lunch 1.30 - 2.45 "The Concept of Authenticity in Adorno's Aesthetics" Prof. Max Paddison (Department of Music, Durham University) Tea break 3.00 - 4.15 "Objectivity and Evaluation in Aesthetics": Dr. Mark Rowe (York University) Registration fee (including lunch): £10 (£5 students) Cheques payable to "University of Leeds" should be sent by 7 November to: Dr. Andy Hamilton Dept. of Philosophy Durham University Durham DH1 3HP Tel: 0191 374 7647 Fax: 0191 374 7635 Email: A.J.Hamilton@durham.ac.uk Financial support from the British Society for Aesthetics is gratefully acknowledged. Robin Findlay Hendry Department of Philosophy University of Durham 50 Old Elvet Durham DH1 3HN __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Sep 29 18:03:58 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA27053 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA09293 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA21155 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:34:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA21142 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay1.Hawaii.Edu (root@relay1.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.3.53]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id OAA29571 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by relay1.Hawaii.Edu via suspension id <588105(3)>; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:33:05 -1000 Received: from uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu ([128.171.44.6]) by relay1.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <587235(9)>; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:28:08 -1000 Received: from localhost by uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <17326(3)>; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:26:03 -1000 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:25:56 -1000 From: Anthony J Palmer X-Sender: apalmer@uhunix1 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Panel Formation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Anthony J Palmer Status: O You have no doubt seen the announcement on the meeting of the World Congress of Philosophy in Boston, August 10 - 16, 1998. I would like to organize a panel to discuss the differences in aesthetic views between practitioners (in this case, musicians) and non-practitioner philosophers. I have long been interested in this subject since I read Portnoy's The Philosopher and Music many years ago. Are there two people who might be interested in being on such a panel? We would present brief papers on our point of view (perhaps 15 minutes), then devote the rest of the time to general discussion. Thanks for your consideration. Anthony J. Palmer, Music Department, University of Hawai`i at Mnoa. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 2 14:35:40 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA27088 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA06250 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA18991 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA18976 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:10:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.41]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA03779 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:09:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dlopes@localhost) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) id KAA24936 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:09:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id FAA18698 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.liv.ac.uk (listserv.liv.ac.uk [138.253.253.98]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA18155; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv (138.253.253.98) by listserv.liv.ac.uk (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.95248AA0@listserv.liv.ac.uk>; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:51:56 +0100 Received: from LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK by LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 3817 for PHILOS-L@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:51:55 +0100 Received: from mailhub.liverpool.ac.uk (138.253.100.84) by listserv.liv.ac.uk (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.2F0305E0@listserv.liv.ac.uk>; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:41:55 +0100 Received: from mhub.mdx.ac.uk (actually host hub.mdx.ac.uk) by mail.liv.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:41:28 +0100 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.1-8 #18911) id <01IOBW5706SG002SN7@mdx.ac.uk> for Philos-l@liverpool.ac.uk; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:41:29 BST Received: from tm1.mdx.ac.uk by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.1-8 #18911) with ESMTP id <01IOBW56EPJA0024I5@mdx.ac.uk> for Philos-l@liverpool.ac.uk; Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:41:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from TM1/MAILQUEUE2 by tm1.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.21); Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:43:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MAILQUEUE2 by TM1 (Mercury 1.21); Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:43:00 +0000 (GMT) MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.53/R1) Content-type: text/plain Priority: normal Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:42:33 +0000 From: JONATHAN REE Organization: Middlesex University Subject: Aesthetics: Art and the senses Comments: To: Philos-l@liverpool.ac.uk To: PHILOS-L@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: JONATHAN REE Status: O "Where theory ends, there art begins" One-day conference on Philosophy, Art and the Senses Saturday 22 November 1997 Middlesex University White Hart Lane London N17 8HR Sylviane Agacinski: "Transformations of Painting" Jonathan Ree: "The five senses" Jacques Ranciere: "What is 'aesthetic'?" Jay Bernstein: "The Horror of non-identity: Cindy Sherman's Modernism" David Batchelor: "On Colour and on Kawara" Other speakers include Howard Caygill and Mandy Merck Conference Fee: 25 pounds waged, 8 pounds unwaged Cheques payable to Middlesex University Send to Jonathan Ree (conference), Middlesex University, White Hart Lane, London N17 8HR Jonathan Ree Middlesex University White Hart Lane London N17 8HR Telephone: 0181 362 5551 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 3 14:02:07 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA18658 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA03280 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA06140 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA06133 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.nexus.it (root@corelli.nexus.it [193.76.244.11]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA08558 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:56:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from 193.76.244.202 (gesualdob.nexus.it [193.76.244.202]) by mail.nexus.it (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA07689 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:55:52 +0200 Message-ID: <34355CE2.1205@mail.nexus.it> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 18:00:18 -0300 From: Leonardo Distaso X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02APPLE (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Informations about jobs opportunities X-URL: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl/net/aesthetics-list.html Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Leonardo Distaso Status: O > Aesthetics List > > Aesthetics is a mailing list for the exchange of ideas and information > about aesthetics and philosophy of art. Many kinds of contribution are > welcome: discussions of issues in aesthetics, requests for > information, calls for papers, conference announcements, job postings, > aesthetics news, etc. > > The list regularly broadcasts news from the American Society of > Aesthetics. It also announces what's new on Aesthetics On-Line. > > An archive of postings to the aesthetics list is maintained at this > site. > > Send messages for broadcast to all list subscribers to > aesthetics@indiana.edu > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To Subscribe or Unsubscribe > > Check one: > subscribe > unsubscribe > First Name:Leonardo V. > Last Name:Distaso > Email Address:leodist@mail.nexus.it > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > [Home Page] [Aesthetics Ideas] [Aesthetics News] > > [Aesthetics Links] [JAAC] [Philosophy Links] [Arts Links] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 3 20:56:50 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA14011 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:56:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA19274 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:56:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA27733 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:20:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA27725 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.143]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA06416 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 19:19:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from whittierpc1.tc.columbia.edu (whittierpc1.tc.columbia.edu [128.59.90.79]) by mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA14654 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:19:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu: whittierpc1.tc.columbia.edu [128.59.90.79] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <3435B436.A3B@columbia.edu> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 20:12:54 -0700 From: Jennifer Jones Organization: Teachers College, Columbia University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Teaching 'Aesthetics' in El. Ed. and Secondary Ed. Schools Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Jennifer Jones Status: O Art Ed. Teachers College, Columbia U. Grad. student here looking for resources and any other information you may have on the topic of teaching aesthetics in visual arts elementary and secondary school settings. It is part of a research project I am working on - thanks. Also I collect great quotes pertaining to the arts in education if you care to share any. jcd37@columbia.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 3 23:19:44 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA13261 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA03785 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA00226 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 21:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA00219 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 21:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from tpts5.seed.net.tw (root@tpts5.seed.net.tw [139.175.12.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA24932 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 21:40:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [139.175.49.93] (n49-93.dialup.seed.net.tw [139.175.49.93]) by tpts5.seed.net.tw (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA14428 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 10:32:59 +0800 (CST) Message-Id: <199710040232.KAA14428@tpts5.seed.net.tw> To: "aesthetics@indiana.edu" Subject: Aesthetics: Abstract Art and Aesthetics Date: Sat, 04 Oct 97 10:40:05 -0500 From: "Shu, Janet" X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Shu, Janet" Status: O -- [ From: Shu, Janet * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Hello, everyone, I am an International Baccalaureate student at Taipei American School. I am working on my Philosophy Extended Essay on the topic, "Is Abstract Art Considered Art Under the Idealist Theory of Aesthetics?" Because I live in Taiwan, I have limited philosophical materials. I would truly appreciate any help in finding materials, such as web-site links, publications, discussion groups, or anything else. Please email me. Thank you, Janet Shu mjanet1@hotmail.com jpcshu@tpts5.seed.net.com __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 6 15:14:18 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA07619 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:14:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA21091 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:14:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA01387 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:55:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA01376 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.41]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA01629; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:54:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id KAA26837; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:54:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971006104325.006f9f60@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:43:25 -0500 To: Leonardo Distaso , aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Informations about jobs opportunities In-Reply-To: <34355CE2.1205@mail.nexus.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O please do not send junk mail to the whole aesthetics email list. dom lopes list owner At 18:00 10.3.97 -0300, Leonardo Distaso wrote: >> Aesthetics List >> >> Aesthetics is a mailing list for the exchange of ideas and information >> about aesthetics and philosophy of art. Many kinds of contribution are >> welcome: discussions of issues in aesthetics, requests for >> information, calls for papers, conference announcements, job postings, >> aesthetics news, etc. >> >> The list regularly broadcasts news from the American Society of >> Aesthetics. It also announces what's new on Aesthetics On-Line. >> >> An archive of postings to the aesthetics list is maintained at this >> site. >> >> Send messages for broadcast to all list subscribers to >> aesthetics@indiana.edu >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> To Subscribe or Unsubscribe >> >> Check one: >> subscribe >> unsubscribe >> First Name:Leonardo V. >> Last Name:Distaso >> Email Address:leodist@mail.nexus.it >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> [Home Page] [Aesthetics Ideas] [Aesthetics News] >> >> [Aesthetics Links] [JAAC] [Philosophy Links] [Arts Links] >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > > ________________________________________________________ dom lopes Aesthetics List To subscribe or unsubscribe: Information: __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 6 21:00:32 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA13725 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:00:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA24912 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:00:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA23681 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:03:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA23671 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:03:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA20852 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:03:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from a.c.bron ([195.121.70.82]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA7906 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 01:01:52 +0200 Message-ID: <34397BE5.4EDD@wxs.nl> Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 01:01:41 +0100 From: "Alfred C. Bronswijk" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-WXS-32 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Theology and aesthetics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Alfred C. Bronswijk" Status: O I'am a Dutch theologian and inspired bij Tillich I started to study the relation of theology and modern art/aestehtics in the modern, pluralistic society. So I'am interested in studies, papers and articles wich a philophical/theological appraoch of this aesthetic question. Who can help me? Thanks, Alfred __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Oct 7 18:43:46 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA27223 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA28910 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA01095 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:28:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA00749 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:20:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.41]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA01781 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:20:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id PAA18849 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:20:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971007144738.0069f7bc@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:47:38 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Alvaro Torrente (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: Rockefeller Fellowships at CBMR (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id PAA00750 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alvaro Torrente (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 15:21:34 From: Marcos Sueiro Rockefeller Fellowships at the Center for Black Music Research, Columbia College Chicago 1998–1999 Under the auspices of the Rockefeller Foundation, the Center for Black Music Research of Columbia College Chicago is offering resident fellowships during the 1998–1999 academic year. The theme for the 1998–1999 academic year will be “In the Spirit of Paul Robeson: International Scholarship in Music.” As humanities disciplines, the arts have been treated separately under the rubric of history and criticism, with the fields of literature, musicology, art history, dance, and theater varying in their respective degrees of productivity. The primary assumption of integrative studies, as it is viewed by the CBMR, is that single modes of inquiry might be developed to facilitate inquiry into the expressive arts in general—modes of inquiry that avoid the exclusionary vocabularies and critical practices of the separate disciplines. The program is based on the assumption that true international scholarship treating black culture must embrace not only musical thought and practice but also the thought and practice of all the black expressive arts—including dance, poetry, literature, the visual arts, and dramaturgy—and that humanist scholars will negotiate the boundaries between and among these expressions, thereby eliding notions of artistic autonomy and expressive distinctiveness. For the 1998–1999 year of Fellowship study, the figure and memory of Paul Robeson will stand as a symbol of and metaphor for integrative and international scholarship. The theme of the project is particularly apt, since the year 1998 is the centennial of Robeson’s birth. Applications will be considered from scholars in the fields of African-American music, literature, history, theater, visual arts, and dance; from scholars in African-American, Latin-American, and Caribbean studies; and from the general fields of philosophy, sociology, criticism, folklore, and American cultural studies. The Fellows will be in residence full-time at Columbia College Chicago during the period of their appointment and will present works-in-progress at colloquia and seminars. With their primary focus on their own research and writing, the Fellows will also have opportunities to interact with Columbia College faculty and students, with members of the Chicago arts, cultural, and educational communities, and with members of the Center’s Integrative Studies Round Table, who also will be in residence for short periods. Applicants must hold the Ph.D. degree or its equivalent. They must have completed work on their terminal degree at the time of application and should be able to demonstrate their familiarity with the Center’s Integrative Studies Program. (The Center will provide detailed information on request.) The project will consider all complete applications and will also reserve the right to invite applications from unusually qualified individuals. Special Features of the Fellows Program The Center's Integrative Studies Program (ISP) was launched in 1993 to begin dialogue about how scholars in the various disciplines of the black expressive arts might together develop common modes of inquiry for the study of black artistic expression and for the exploration of the common threads that bind African-American, Latin-American, European, and European-derived intellectual, cultural, and artistic knowledge and activity. A panel of artists and scholars has been formed to explore issues that embody the relationships between the arts and the humanities, between intellect and creativity. It will meet once or twice during the fellowship year, and its focus will be upon issues related to international scholarship and integrative inquiry. Among the visiting scholars who will be in residence at different times during the year are the following: Jeff R. Donaldson, Dean of the Howard University College of Fine Arts and co-founder of the Visual Arts Workshop of the Organization of Black American Culture (OBAC) and of AfriCobra, Washington, D.C. Edmund Barry Gaither, Director, Museum of the National Center of Afro-American Artists, Roxbury, Massachusetts Michael D. Harris, Assistant Professor of African and African-American Art History at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Paul Carter Harrison, Writer-in-Residence at Columbia College Chicago and author of The Great MacDaddy (for which he won an Obie Award), the book entitled The Drama of Nommo, and other works Paul Hoover, Poet-in-Residence at Columbia College Chicago, author of several books of poetry (including Viridian, Idea, and Nervous Songs) and a novel titled Saigon, Illinois, and editor of Postmodern American Poetry: A Norton Anthology Lawrence Kramer, Professor of Music, Fordham University, author of Music as Cultural Practice, 1800–1900 and other works Richard A. Long, Atticus Haygood Professor of Interdisciplinary Studies, Emory University, and author of The Black Tradition in American Dance Sterling Stuckey, Professor of History at the University of California-Riverside and author of Slave Culture: Nationalist Theory and the Foundations of Black America and other works Bruce Tucker, freelance writer, Highland Park, New Jersey, and author of James Brown: Godfather of Soul and other works Marta Moreno Vega, founder and director of the Caribbean Cultural Center, New York, N.Y., and author of Voices from the Battlefront: Achieving Cultural Equity and other works Center for Black Music Research The Center for Black Music Research (CBMR) documents and preserves information and material related to the black music experience throughout the world, promotes and advances scholarly knowledge and thought about black music and the black musical experience, and disseminates this information through its conferences, publications, and musical performances. Columbia College Chicago Columbia College Chicago is an independent undergraduate and graduate college in Chicago's central city with approximately 8,400 students and more than 900 faculty members. Columbia College Chicago is a liberal arts college with identity in the arts, media, communications, and public information. Scholarly and Cultural Resources of the College and the City Resident Fellows will have at their disposal the holdings and services of the CBMR Library and Archives and of the specialized holdings in art, photography, dance, and theater of the Columbia College Library. For music research, the CBMR Database's deep indexing feature will measurably enhance research efforts, as will, in other fields, the holdings at nearby facilities such as the Art Institute of Chicago, the Field Museum of Natural History, and the Harold Washington Library Center—all of which are no more than a few blocks or five-minute cab ride away. Orchestra Hall is just four blocks away, Buddy Guy's Blues Legends is a half-block from the CBMR, and the Jazz Showcase is several blocks north. Application Eligibility and Procedure Candidates must have completed the Ph.D. at the time of application. Applicants must submit the following documents in five (5) copies by February 1, 1998: A. Curriculum Vitae B. A 100-word abstract of the project C. A research proposal not to exceed twelve double-spaced pages, consisting of statements of (1) the purpose and rationale of the project; (2) applicant's work on the project to date; (3) relationship of the applicant's project to the theme of the residency program; (4) relevant work on the project by other scholars; and (5) a selected bibliography not to exceed one page. D. Two letters of recommendation from scholars familiar with the proposal and with the applicant's work. Submit application materials by February 1, 1998, to: Ms. Trenace Ford, Project Assistant Center for Black Music Research Columbia College Chicago 600 South Michigan Avenue Chicago IL 60605 Applicants will be notified by April 1, 1998. Residencies will commence in September 1998. Direct all inquiries to Trenace Ford, Project Assistant (tford@popmail.colum.edu). Visit the CBMR Web site at http://www.colum.edu/cbmr/ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Oct 7 18:33:48 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA21514 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA00995 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:33:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA00762 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA00752 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:20:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA16262 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:20:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id PAA18891 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:20:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971007145309.006b7364@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:53:09 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: John Mullarkey (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: Philosophy, Art, and Experience conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: John Mullarkey (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O THE ROYAL INSTITUTE OF PHILOSOPHY in conjunction with THE CENTRE FOR STUDIES IN CONTEMPORARY APPROACHES TO PHILOSOPHY (University of Sunderland) Announce a Day School on PHILOSOPHY, ART, AND EXPERIENCE with speakers Michael Rosen, Lincoln College, Oxford 'Benjamin, Adorno and the Decline of the Aura' and Brian P. O'Connor, University College, Dublin 'The Idea of Negative Experience' at 5.00pm on Thursday, 6 November 1997 Lecture Theatre 007, Prospect Building, St Peter's Campus, University of Sunderland Admission is free. All members of the public are welcome For further details contact: Dr John Mullarkey, Philosophy, School of Social and International Studies, University of Sunderland, Room 315, Forster Building, Chester Road, Sunderland SR1 3SD; Tel: 0191 515 2108; Fax: 0191 515 2105; E-mail: john.mullarkey@sunderland.ac.uk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 8 04:16:15 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id EAA26887 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 04:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA14109 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 04:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA14233 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:07:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA14226 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:07:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA13430 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:07:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA02624 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.76.72] (beeker.cc.vt.edu [128.173.76.72]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA12128 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:06:57 -0400 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: mitra moshari Subject: Aesthetics: abject art and leonardos grotesques Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mitra moshari Status: O Hello Everyone! Iam a student trying to do reserach on "abject art and the relation to Leonardo's grotesques." If anyone out there has any information/knowledge; or can point me in the right direction regarding this topic, I would greatly appreciate any bit of help (on either abject art and/or Leonardo's grotesques)! Sincerely, Mitra Moshari __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 9 02:25:12 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id CAA07111 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA02871 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id AAA06780 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:44:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id AAA06772 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:43:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA17537 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:43:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from x---- (athe-g06.otenet.gr [195.167.120.103]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA26697 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:43:20 +0300 (EET DST) Message-Id: <199710090543.IAA26697@athserv.otenet.gr> From: "Haris Kambouridis" To: Subject: Aesthetics: MODERN GREEK ART ARCHIVES-free CD ROM Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:42:22 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Haris Kambouridis" Status: O Our MODERN GREEK ART ARCHIVES is a large, non-profit, collection of documents (personal documents, exhibition catalogues, publications, videos, etc) relating to Painting, Sculpture, etc by Greek (or, of Greek origin) artists. We are interested in collecting any relative material or relative infrormation. For Greek-speaking artlovers we can immediately supply, free of any charge, our ELECTRONIC PINAKOTHEK, our interactive CD ROM for PC (420 painters, 500 artworks, History, Lexicon, etc) containning almost all Greek painters of post 1832 era. Please contact us at ssva@otener.gr, attn. Prof.Haris Kambouridis. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 10 09:41:19 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id JAA09276 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:41:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA16916 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id HAA23151 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id HAA23144 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from nic.smsu.edu (root@nic.smsu.edu [146.7.2.3]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA11256 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:15:09 -0500 (EST) From: jmf853f@nic.smsu.edu Received: from [146.7.51.98] ([146.7.51.98]) by nic.smsu.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id HAA59150; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:13:47 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:13:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aphil-l@coombs.anu.edu.au, analytic-philosophy@think.net, analyst-admin@sheffield.ac.uk, alife@cognet.ucla.edu, aesthetics@think.net, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: MidSouth cfp Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jmf853f@nic.smsu.edu Status: O CALL FOR PAPERS MID-SOUTH PHILOSOPHY CONFERENCE University of Memphis, Tennessee, USA February 27-28, 1998 The 22nd annual Mid-South Philosophy Conference is scheduled for Friday afternoon and Saturday, February 27-28, at the University of Memphis. Papers on any topic of philosophic interest are welcomed. Papers are limited to 25 minutes reading time (normally, 12 double-spaced pages). Submit THREE printed copies as well as a copy in WordPerfect or ASCII format on a computer diskette (papers also may be submitted via the Internet, preferably in ASCII). All copies must include a 100-word abstract, the paper's title, author's name, institutional affiliation, mailing address, email address, and telephone number. Papers which do not meet these guidelines will not be considered. Send submissions to: Professor James B. Sauer Department of Philosophy Saint Mary's University 1 Camino Santa Maria San Antonio Texas 78228-8566 USA Papers must be submitted by JANUARY 7. Papers will be reviewed by a committee, and notification of acceptance will be made in late January. Each paper will have a commentator. Those interested in commenting should notify Professor Sauer no later than January 23 of availability and areas of interest. His email address is philjim@stmarytx.edu and his telephone number is 210-431-6860. Professor OWEN FLANAGAN of Duke University will be the keynote speaker. Funding for the keynote speaker is provided by the University of Memphis Center for the Humanities, directed by Professor Thomas Nenon. Professor Nenon has reserved rooms for Friday (2/27) and Saturday (2/28) at the Holiday Inn Midtown on 1837 Union Avenue, a ten minute drive from campus. The room rate is $59.00 per night. Make reservations directly; the hotel's telephone number is 901-278-4100. The airport shuttle goes to the hotel for ten dollars. Please encourage students to attend and submit papers to the University of Memphis UNDERGRADUATE PHILOSOPHY CONFERENCE, which will be running parallel sessions. Papers may be on any area of philosophy and should be able to be read in less than 30 minutes (preference will be given to well-focused shorter papers). Papers must be submitted by JANUARY 23; review of submissions will begin on January 12. Send TWO printed copies with a 100-word abstract to: Undergraduate Philosophy Conference, Department of Philosophy, University of Memphis, Memphis, TN 38152. Include a telephone number or email address. The Mid-South Philosophy Conference is supported and underwritten by the Philosophy Department and Center for the Humanities of the University of Memphis, as well as by the Philosophy Department and Institute of Liberal Arts of Oklahoma City University. Visit the Mid-South Philosophy Conference's website at http://www.mtsu.edu/~jpurcell/MidSouth/midsouth.htm PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO ANYONE WHO WOULD BE INTERESTED __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 10 16:35:14 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id QAA18588 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:35:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA00063 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:35:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA07286 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:21:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA07273 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from lismore.cc.strath.ac.uk (lismore.cc.strath.ac.uk [130.159.248.18]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id NAA22863 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from skye.cc.strath.ac.uk [130.159.248.9] by lismore.cc.strath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.61 #3) id 0xJjfM-0006Ld-00; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:20:00 +0100 Received: from dialup-01.cc.strath.ac.uk (dialup-08.cc.strath.ac.uk [130.159.96.150]) by skye.cc.strath.ac.uk (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA26685 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:19:31 +0100 Message-Id: <199710101819.TAA26685@skye.cc.strath.ac.uk> From: "Eddie Laverty" To: Subject: Aesthetics: 'Aesthetics' what is it? Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:26:47 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Eddie Laverty" Status: O Hello, I am a fourth year Product Design student at the University of Strathclyde, Glasgow, Scotland. I am currently researching 'methods' used in the field of Aesthietics. If anyone can offer me any assistance on how they, or companies they know of, achieve their desired aesthetic qualities, whatever medium they are working in, I would be most grateful. ta! Eddie Laverty __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Oct 12 11:39:37 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id LAA09363 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA11621 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:39:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA21147 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:16:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA21140 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.enterprise.net (root@mail.enterprise.net [194.72.192.20]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA28492 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [194.72.196.47] (ppp301.enterprise.net [194.72.196.47]) by mail.enterprise.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA03636; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:16:08 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: gjg@mail.enterprise.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34397BE5.4EDD@wxs.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:11:42 +0100 To: "Alfred C. Bronswijk" From: Gordon Giles Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Theology and aesthetics Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Gordon Giles Status: O >I'am a Dutch theologian and inspired bij Tillich I started to study the >relation of theology and modern art/aestehtics in the modern, >pluralistic society. So I'am interested in studies, papers and articles >wich a philophical/theological appraoch of this aesthetic question. >Who can help me? Jeremy Begbie, here in Cambridge (Ridley Hall) has writen "Voicing Creation's Praise", published by T& T Clark, Edinburgh (1990?) - all about Tillich, Art and Theology. Also the Dean of King's College, Cambridge, George Pattison, has written "Art Modernity and Faith", CUP, 1992?. Alos books by Dillenberger. I presume you know about Rookmaaker's "Modern Art and the Death of Culture", he being Dutch, you could read the original! (-: Try thee for starters, Gordon ----- Gordon.Giles@ely.anglican.org http://homepages.enterprise.net/gjg __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 13 14:46:14 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA25640 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA07750 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA28647 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:45:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA28627 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:45:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.41]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA23105 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:44:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id KAA01387 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:44:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971013104547.006d8d14@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:45:47 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: cfp Literature as Revolution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O Contributions are invited on the subject of LITERATURE AS REVOLUTION for the Sixth International Conference of the International Society for the Study of European Ideas, to be held at the University of Haifa, Israel, August 16-21, 1998. The emphasis will be on how literature has motivated or can motive political and social revolutions, including revolutions in thought. Interdisciplinary approaches are encouraged, but all proposals will be considered. Theoretical frameworks may include, but are not limited to, psychoanalysis, sociology, PHILOSOPHY (particularly aesthetics), history, political science, comparative literature, and single-nation literature. Analyses of specific works that have served to foment, support, or suppress revolution are also encouraged. Though the workshop is entitled LITERATURE AS REVOLUTION IN 20TH CENTURY EUROPE, the topic is meant to be extremely broad--the work may be from elsewhere (colonial and postcolonial narratives are encouraged), provided an effect was felt in 20th century Europe. Too, the revolution itself need not be in Europe (it might be elsewhere)--provided one or more European works are considered. Selected papers will be published in the ISSEI's journal, _The European Legacy: Towards New Paradigms_, and on CD-ROM. Please send a one-page abstract and a CV to the workshop chair by January 1. E-mail submissions are welcome. Terry Mackey Dept of English & Philosophy State University of West Georgia Carrollton GA 30118 USA tmackey@westga.edu 770-830-2257 (phone) 770-830-2334 (fax--PLEASE call or email to verify that your fax has arrived, as the system is unreliable) __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 15 19:39:20 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA10437 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA22354 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA12686 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA12679 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.10.41]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA18221 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id LAA13554 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:26:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971015112753.0069e374@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:27:53 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: spam on this list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: RO I just wanted to reassure everyone that I have written to the folks who're trying to use this list to sell toner demanding that they cease and desist. Unfortunately that's all I can do, and it may not stop them since they're probably using an automated spammer. dom lopes listowner __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 15 23:21:38 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA13422 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA02820 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA13521 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:34:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA13513 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA08719; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:33:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EI400K01HRPGF@emerald.tufts.edu>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:33:25 -0400 (EDT) From: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: spam on this list In-reply-to: <3.0.3.32.19971015112753.0069e374@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> To: dom lopes Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, dom lopes wrote: > I just wanted to reassure everyone that I have written to the folks who're > trying to use this list to sell toner demanding that they cease and desist. > Unfortunately that's all I can do, and it may not stop them since they're > probably using an automated spammer. > Of course, we could always be vengeful and flame them with heavy-duty spams (send 5000 copies of the longest posts we've had and jam up their memory). They might get the point. Anyone care to speculate on the aesthetics of such an act? James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 16 03:43:33 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id DAA09548 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA23083 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:43:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA19558 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:53:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA19551 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:53:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from donald.uoregon.edu (donald.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.6]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA25063 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:52:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from OREGON.UOREGON.EDU by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #26538) id <01IOURGGQAUQ8ZEWFZ@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:52:50 PDT Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:52:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Arnie Cox Subject: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance In-reply-to: To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Arnie Cox Status: O > > I just wanted to reassure everyone that I have written to the folks who're > > trying to use this list to sell toner demanding that they cease and desist. > > Unfortunately that's all I can do, and it may not stop them since they're > > probably using an automated spammer. > > Of course, we could always be vengeful and flame them with heavy-duty > spams (send 5000 copies of the longest posts we've had and jam up their > memory). They might get the point. > > Anyone care to speculate on the aesthetics of such an act? > > James Harbeck. Pleasure in balance? (If this be balance.) Pleasure in revenge? (To whatever extent this may differ from balance.) Pleasure in exerting/demonstrating(/enacting) power and control over/within one's environment? Pleasure in participation (in a vengeful act)? Or, substitute "meaning from" for "pleasure in". Arnie Cox __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 16 15:48:33 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA15877 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA30760 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:48:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA04751 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA04743 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from kantti.Helsinki.FI (root@kantti.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.12]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA13746 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from Teologi1.helsinki.fi (teologi1.helsinki.fi [128.214.183.64]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.8.5/8.8.5-spammers-bug-off) with ESMTP id TAA14908 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:59:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from TEOLOGI1/SpoolDir by Teologi1.helsinki.fi (Mercury 1.21); 16 Oct 97 20:01:31 EET DST Received: from SpoolDir by TEOLOGI1 (Mercury 1.21); 16 Oct 97 20:01:03 EET DST From: "Kuorikoski Arto M" Organization: University of Helsinki To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:01:01 EET DST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Theology and aesthetics X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Kuorikoski Arto M" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <34397BE5.4EDD@wxs.nl> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.53/R1) Message-ID: <2AAFD964979@Teologi1.helsinki.fi> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kuorikoski Arto M" Status: O > Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 01:01:41 +0100 > From: "Alfred C. Bronswijk" > To: aesthetics@indiana.edu > Subject: Aesthetics: Theology and aesthetics > Reply-to: "Alfred C. Bronswijk" > I'am a Dutch theologian and inspired bij Tillich I started to study the > relation of theology and modern art/aestehtics in the modern, > pluralistic society. So I'am interested in studies, papers and articles > wich a philophical/theological appraoch of this aesthetic question. > Who can help me? A german book of interest is Horst Schwebel's "Autonome Kunst im Raum der Kirche (Hamburg, 1968)." Also check Mark C. Taylor: Disfiguring (1992) and Nicholas Wolterstorff: Art in Action (1980) Arto __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 16 20:25:59 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA03870 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:25:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA02894 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA21414 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA21407 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA25021 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EI6001012G2VQ@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:57:38 -0400 (EDT) From: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance In-reply-to: To: Arnie Cox Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Arnie Cox wrote: > Or, substitute "meaning from" for "pleasure in". Now there's a question: is "meaning" aesthetic, i.e., is getting meaning from something aesthetic? Clearly, it may seem necessry for there to be meaning of some sort in order for aesthesis to occur, but I'm of the inclination to think that if there is meaning, there is aesthesis. It does not sound to me like something everyone would agree on, however. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 16 20:46:14 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA11856 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:46:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA07025 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA22689 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA22682 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id SAA09244 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:31:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #13) id ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <3996733@isis.reed.edu> Date: 16 Oct 97 16:30:42 PDT From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance To: jharbeck@emerald.tufts.edu, acox@oregon.uoregon.edu (Arnie Cox) Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O --- James Harbeck wrote: Now there's a question: is "meaning" aesthetic, i.e., is getting meaning from something aesthetic? Clearly, it may seem necessry for there to be meaning of some sort in order for aesthesis to occur, but I'm of the inclination to think that if there is meaning, there is aesthesis. It does not sound to me like something everyone would agree on, however. James Harbeck. --- end of quotATION --- _________ A small answer to a large question: No, getting meaning from something covers a lot more territory than being "aesthetic". But I do think that meaning is *necessary* condition of "aesthesis",= just sensations don't Rise to the aesthetic Level. (Just- sensations have no meaning.) bill peck reed c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 17 02:56:12 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id CAA23598 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:56:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA28538 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA04216 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA04190 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from anugpo.anu.edu.au (anugpo.anu.edu.au [150.203.2.6]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA28979 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:24:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.203.27.44] (philomg-44.anu.edu.au [150.203.27.44]) by anugpo.anu.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13593 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:24:10 +1000 (EST) X-Sender: ebc607@anu.edu.au Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:33:41 +1000 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: elizabeth.coleman@anu.edu.au (Elizabeth Coleman) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: elizabeth.coleman@anu.edu.au (Elizabeth Coleman) Status: O >--- James Harbeck wrote: >Now there's a question: is "meaning" aesthetic, i.e., is getting meaning >from something aesthetic? Clearly, it may seem necessry for there to be >meaning of some sort in order for aesthesis to occur, but I'm of the >inclination to think that if there is meaning, there is aesthesis. It does >not sound to me like something everyone would agree on, however. > >James Harbeck. > >A small answer to a large question: >No, getting meaning from something covers a lot more territory than being >"aesthetic". >But I do think that meaning is *necessary* condition of "aesthesis",= just >sensations don't Rise to the aesthetic Level. (Just- sensations have no >meaning.) > >bill peck >reed c James, Bill Does this mean that one couldn't have an aesthetic response to a sunset or the paint flaking off a wall because they has no 'meaning'? Does it restrict aesthetic to the 'cultural' rather than the 'natural'? Elizabeth C. Elizabeth Burns Coleman Philosophy Department Australian National University email: elizabeth.coleman@anu.edu.au __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 17 06:04:10 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id GAA08350 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA24429 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id DAA05801 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:57:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id DAA05794 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:57:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.143]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA31194 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from columbia.edu (dialup-11-12.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.36.248]) by mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA24907 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <34472866.5163F81E@columbia.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:57:10 -0400 From: York Gunther X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "aesthetics@indiana.edu" Subject: [Fwd: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C996AD8E9AD993C4E8ABABEA" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: York Gunther Status: O This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C996AD8E9AD993C4E8ABABEA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4550770E0F2D4C393C36009F" --------------4550770E0F2D4C393C36009F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >--- James Harbeck wrote: >Now there's a question: is "meaning" aesthetic, i.e., is getting meaning >from something aesthetic? Clearly, it may seem necessry for there to be >meaning of some sort in order for aesthesis to occur, but I'm of the >inclination to think that if there is meaning, there is aesthesis. It does >not sound to me like something everyone would agree on, however. > >James Harbeck. > >A small answer to a large question: >No, getting meaning from something covers a lot more territory than being >"aesthetic". >But I do think that meaning is *necessary* condition of "aesthesis",= just >sensations don't Rise to the aesthetic Level. (Just- sensations have no >meaning.) > >bill peck >reed c James, Bill Does this mean that one couldn't have an aesthetic response to a sunset or the paint flaking off a wall because they has no 'meaning'? Does it restrict aesthetic to the 'cultural' rather than the 'natural'? Elizabeth C. Elizabeth Burns Coleman Philosophy Department Australian National University email: elizabeth.coleman@anu.edu.au James, Bill, Elizabeth I suppose it depends upon whether you think that experiencing the sun setting or paint flaking has meaning, which evidently depends upon what one means by "meaning," or perhaps "content." If we meant something like what Frege means by "sense" or "cognitive significance," it's not at all evident that experiencing the sun setting or paint flaking lacks sense or cognitive significance. Hence, James' necessary condition for aesthetic experience seems right. Of course, there are complications. For example, some philosophers have recently argued for nonconceptual content (again), citing (among others) musical experience and the detail of colour experience as examples. The introduction of nonconceptuality can be seen as an extension of Frege's initial characterization of content (e.g. unlike Frege's notion, nonconceptual content doesn't determine its reference or truth conditions). If musical experience is included among nonconceptual content, we'll evidently want nonconceptuality (rather than just conceptual\Fregean content) also included among what we mean by content. With this in mind, we can once again formulate James' necessary condition thus: content (meaning), whether conceptual or nonconceptual, is necessary for aesthetic experience. Ok, but what about experiences which are generally not thought of as having content on this extended definition, mental states which are generally said not to be representational. Among such states, we generally think of the so-called "qualitative states" like orgasms, tickles, proprioception and pains. Let's grant for the moment that they lack content. Can we speak of aesthetic experiences of orgasms, of a beating heart, of tickles, of pains? Let me be clear here: I'm not talking about the cause of the qualitative state, I'm talking about the state itself. It might be best to think of this in terms of qualitative states which have causes we don't have to recognize, e.g. pains or tingles. If qualitative states like these could be aesthetic, then it sees we've found a counterexample James' necessary condition. (That's, of course, assuming that we don't again extend what we mean by "meaning" or "content." I fear if we did that, James' condition would become a little empty.) This would show that aesthetic properties aren't coextensive with intentional (content) properties. This would evidently also be an example of a natural experience which has an aesthetic dimension. My question, however, is whether aesthetic experience supervenes upon conscious properties. Can we have such an experience and not be conscious of it? Anyone have any intuitions here? York --------------4550770E0F2D4C393C36009F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >--- James Harbeck wrote:
>Now there's a question: is "meaning" aesthetic, i.e., is getting meaning
>from something aesthetic? Clearly, it may seem necessry for there to be
>meaning of some sort in order for aesthesis to occur, but I'm of the
>inclination to think that if there is meaning, there is aesthesis. It does
>not sound to me like something everyone would agree on, however.
>
>James Harbeck.

>
>A small answer to a large question:
>No, getting meaning from something covers a lot more territory than being
>"aesthetic".
>But I do think that meaning is *necessary* condition of "aesthesis",= just
>sensations don't Rise to the aesthetic Level.  (Just- sensations have no
>meaning.)
>
>bill peck
>reed c

James, Bill

Does this mean that one couldn't have an aesthetic response to a sunset or
the paint flaking off a wall because they has no 'meaning'? Does it
restrict aesthetic to the 'cultural' rather than the 'natural'?

Elizabeth C.
 

Elizabeth Burns Coleman
Philosophy Department
Australian National University 
email: elizabeth.coleman@anu.edu.au
 
James, Bill, Elizabeth

I suppose it depends upon whether you think that experiencing the sun setting or paint flaking has meaning, which evidently depends upon what one means by "meaning," or perhaps "content."  If we meant something like what Frege means by "sense" or "cognitive significance," it's not at all evident that experiencing the sun setting or paint flaking lacks sense or cognitive significance.  Hence, James' necessary condition for aesthetic experience seems right.  Of course, there are complications.  For example, some philosophers have recently argued for nonconceptual content (again), citing (among others) musical experience and the detail of colour experience as examples.  The introduction of nonconceptuality can be seen as an extension of Frege's initial characterization of content (e.g. unlike Frege's notion, nonconceptual content doesn't determine its reference or truth conditions).  If musical experience is included among nonconceptual content, we'll evidently want nonconceptuality (rather than just conceptual\Fregean content) also included among what we mean by content.  With this in mind, we can once again formulate James' necessary condition thus: content (meaning), whether conceptual or nonconceptual, is necessary for aesthetic experience.

Ok, but what about experiences which are generally not thought of as having content on this extended definition, mental states which are generally said not to be representational.  Among such states, we generally think of the so-called "qualitative states" like orgasms, tickles, proprioception and pains.  Let's grant for the moment that they lack content.  Can we speak of aesthetic experiences of orgasms, of a beating heart, of tickles, of pains?  Let me be clear here: I'm not talking about the cause of the qualitative state, I'm talking about the state itself.  It might be best to think of this in terms of qualitative states which have causes we don't have to recognize, e.g. pains or tingles.  If qualitative states like these could be aesthetic, then it sees we've found a counterexample James' necessary condition.  (That's, of course, assuming that we don't again extend what we mean by "meaning" or "content."  I fear if we did that, James' condition would become a little empty.)  This would show that aesthetic properties aren't coextensive with intentional (content) properties.

This would evidently also be an example of a natural experience which has an aesthetic dimension.  My question, however, is whether aesthetic experience supervenes upon conscious properties.  Can we have such an experience and not be conscious of it?  Anyone have any intuitions here?
 

York --------------4550770E0F2D4C393C36009F-- --------------C996AD8E9AD993C4E8ABABEA Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.143]) by mailhub2.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA17660; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:37:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA10518; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA04216 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA04190 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from anugpo.anu.edu.au (anugpo.anu.edu.au [150.203.2.6]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA28979 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:24:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.203.27.44] (philomg-44.anu.edu.au [150.203.27.44]) by anugpo.anu.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13593 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:24:10 +1000 (EST) X-Sender: ebc607@anu.edu.au Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:33:41 +1000 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: elizabeth.coleman@anu.edu.au (Elizabeth Coleman) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: elizabeth.coleman@anu.edu.au (Elizabeth Coleman) >--- James Harbeck wrote: >Now there's a question: is "meaning" aesthetic, i.e., is getting meaning >from something aesthetic? Clearly, it may seem necessry for there to be >meaning of some sort in order for aesthesis to occur, but I'm of the >inclination to think that if there is meaning, there is aesthesis. It does >not sound to me like something everyone would agree on, however. > >James Harbeck. > >A small answer to a large question: >No, getting meaning from something covers a lot more territory than being >"aesthetic". >But I do think that meaning is *necessary* condition of "aesthesis",= just >sensations don't Rise to the aesthetic Level. (Just- sensations have no >meaning.) > >bill peck >reed c James, Bill Does this mean that one couldn't have an aesthetic response to a sunset or the paint flaking off a wall because they has no 'meaning'? Does it restrict aesthetic to the 'cultural' rather than the 'natural'? Elizabeth C. Elizabeth Burns Coleman Philosophy Department Australian National University email: elizabeth.coleman@anu.edu.au __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl --------------C996AD8E9AD993C4E8ABABEA-- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 17 17:12:51 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA27591 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA17449 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:12:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA29326 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA29319 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from donald.uoregon.edu (donald.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.6]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA12463 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from OREGON.UOREGON.EDU by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #26538) id <01IOWV9MRPK48ZF3XE@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:03:27 PDT Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:03:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Arnie Cox Subject: Aesthetics: Meaning from Pleasure In-reply-to: To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Arnie Cox Status: O When I suggested substituting 'meaning from' for 'pleasure in' I meant to suggest that to 'take pleasure in' is to 'get meaning from'. This would allow for the possibility of meaning to involve more than pleasure, but would hold that pleasure is already meaningful in itself. Since feelings are not precisely describable in words, their 'meaning' likewise eludes linguistic description. If one's definition of 'meaning' requires linguistic description, then feelings fall short of meaning. On the other hand, when something has meaning for me, I certainly have a feeling about it: the thought of something pleases, displeases, or does not displease. And things that please and things that displease seem to have meaning for me: the pleasure I take in musical or other experiences certainly seems to play a part in determining their meaning for me. Accordingly, reading this (above) should have a meaning and a feeling (e.g., 'Hmmm, maybe' or 'Definitely wrong'). So let me ask: Can something - real or imagined, concrete or abstract - have meaning without also involving a feeling toward/about it? And let me ask: Is it meaningful to speak of pleasure as having meaning? Forgive me if this has all been dealt with in print already. I'd appreciate learning of any relevant sources. Arnie Cox __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 17 18:27:29 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA21534 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:27:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA02015 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:27:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA02447 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:27:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA02434 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu (mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu [199.17.81.1]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id PAA22189 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/09Oct95-1257PM) id AA16182; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:26:43 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:26:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Theodore Gracyk To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Question In-Reply-To: <3447F85C.5F4B@krysia.uni.lodz.pl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Theodore Gracyk Status: O I wonder if anyone else is familiar with the following example, and can tell me where I might find a published description? I recall reading that an art class (I think it was at Brown, but I'm not sure), perhaps specifically a class on feminist art, did a project in which they took all the male names from the student directory and listed them on a bulletin board with the heading "Potential Rapists." This action led to considerable controversy on the campus. While I may have the details wrong, does anyone know anything about this case? Thanks in advance, Ted Gracyk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 17 23:10:21 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA27587 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:10:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA27420 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA13741 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:40:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA13734 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA14496 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.7/(97/09/12 5.7)) id WAA07657; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:40:24 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts003d20.stl-mo.concentric.net [206.83.85.80]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.7) id WAA19396; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710180240.WAA19396@cliff.concentric.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: nebbiolo@concentric.net To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:40:04 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4007038@isis.reed.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nebbiolo@concentric.net Status: O >> Does this mean that one couldn't have an aesthetic response to a >>sunset or the paint flaking off a wall because they has no >>'meaning'? Does it restrict aesthetic to the 'cultural' rather than >>the 'natural'? >> >> Elizabeth C. > Hmmm - very good question, elizabeth. it would be embarrassing to say that > there is nothing aesthetic about sunsets. but i guess it's equally > embarrassing to say that sunsets have meaning. so i'm in an embarrassed > dilemma. I was thinking, too simply, of the difference between simple > sensations (whatever they are exactly) and "esthetic experiences' (as the > saying goes): opera lovers don't just love high c or whatever - or they > shouldn't. but now as to sunset lovers - -- > > bill peck > reed c Perhaps beauty, whether in a sunset or in peeling paint, carries its own meaning. In other words, the beautiful is intrinsically meaningful. I understand that beauty is not always a consideration in the aesthetic import of certain works of art, but it certainly seems to be essentially involved in the aesthetics of a sunset. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Theodore Say what you like, but such things do happen -- not often, but they do happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 17 19:08:55 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA02970 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:08:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA05593 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:08:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA07376 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:15:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA07369 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA30974 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA29131; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:15:09 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O The visible world is haunted by the possibility of another world. My images are therefore not aesthetic in their beauty, solidity or completeness, but precisely in their transparency, fragility and potentiality. This work is a tableau of imperfect fragments that seek, in a crippled construction, in an open work of art, the obverse of the image. These images, in their incomplete state, thus do not offer themselves to our gaze as an object, but invite the gaze as it were to enter and slip between the components, the little things, the elements of which it is made up. The viewer has to force a way into the image in order to understand its essence. It is not a matter of seeing the things-in-themselves, but of penetration, of getting between things. { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace << > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < >> hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace << >> imagery online ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace << >> all-the-time ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace << Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html -- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 17 12:24:50 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA28537 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:24:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA06302 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:24:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA11918 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:32:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA11911 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:32:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from KRYSIA.UNI.LODZ.PL (krysia.uni.lodz.pl [193.59.1.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id JAA13864 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:31:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from sala102.uni.lodz.pl by KRYSIA.UNI.LODZ.PL (MX V4.2 AXP) with SMTP; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:31:29 MET Message-ID: <3447F85C.5F4B@krysia.uni.lodz.pl> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:44:28 -0700 From: Pawel Zakrzewski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Study of the sublime in Britain Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Pawel Zakrzewski Status: O Hello, I work as an assistant at Dept. of Theory of Literature, Theatre and Film, University of Lodz, Poland. I am looking for a site of research and learning in Britain which is the most suitable for my research interests. I hope you can help me. I am preparing a PhD dissertation called "Rhetoric of the sublime in a work of literature". I intend to write a monograph on the sublime in literature as opposed to the sublime in other arts and in other linguistic works. I concentrate on a model of persuasiveness included in the sublime. I examplify my statements mainly by works of Polish authors but I also wish to use a comparative perspective and relate my thesis to some works of world literature. I need a broader theoretical perspective in order to give a good historical survey of views on the sublime in rhetoric as well as in aesthetics. Therefore I would like to study the British eighteenth-century aesthetic theory which is extremelly important for every theory of the sublime As a background I would need to study contemporary reflectiones on the sublime by J-F.. Lyotard, J. Derrida and H. Bloom. Would you like to help me and give me some hints where in Britain I can find people working on the sublime? Perhaps you know how I can contact Peter de Bolla and Andrew Ashfield who edited a book „The sublime. A reader in British eighteenth-century theory”. I would be deeply grateful if you could answer my letter. Please, write to my address without sending to the list. Yours sincerely, ~~Jaroslaw Pluciennik Jaroslaw Pluciennik, M.A. Assistant Dept. of Theory of Literature, Theatre and Film University of Lodz ul. Sienkiewicza 21 PL 90-114 Lodz, Poland Telephone/Fax +48 (0) 42 32 04 31 e-mail: jarrek@krysia.uni.lodz.pl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 17 21:05:58 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA00752 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:05:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA05810 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:05:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA11269 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA11262 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id TAA09377 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #13) id ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <4007038@isis.reed.edu> Date: 17 Oct 97 17:35:45 PDT From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance To: elizabeth.coleman@anu.edu.au (Elizabeth Coleman), aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O --- Elizabeth Coleman wrote: >But I do think that meaning is *necessary* condition of "aesthesis",= just >sensations don't Rise to the aesthetic Level. (Just- sensations have no >meaning.) > >bill peck >reed c James, Bill Does this mean that one couldn't have an aesthetic response to a sunset or the paint flaking off a wall because they has no 'meaning'? Does it restrict aesthetic to the 'cultural' rather than the 'natural'? Elizabeth C. --- end of quote --- _________ Hmmm - very good question, elizabeth. it would be embarrassing to say that there is nothing aesthetic about sunsets. but i guess it's equally embarrassing to say that sunsets have meaning. so i'm in an embarrassed dilemma. I was thinking, too simply, of the difference between simple sensations (whatever they are exactly) and "esthetic experiences' (as the saying goes): opera lovers don't just love high c or whatever - or they shouldn't. but now as to sunset lovers - -- bill peck reed c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 17 21:06:19 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA00830 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:06:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA13819 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:06:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA11497 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA11490 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:50:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id TAA06540 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 19:49:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #13) id ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <4007097@isis.reed.edu> Date: 17 Oct 97 17:48:57 PDT From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Meaning from Pleasure To: acox@oregon.uoregon.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O --- Arnie Cox wrote: when something has meaning for me, I certainly have a feeling about it: the thought of something pleases, displeases, or does not displease. And things that please and things that displease seem to have meaning for me: the pleasure I take in musical or other experiences certainly seems to play a part in determining their meaning for me. Accordingly, reading this (above) should have a meaning and a feeling (e.g., 'Hmmm, maybe' or 'Definitely wrong'). So let me ask: Can something - real or imagined, concrete or abstract - have meaning without also involving a feeling toward/about it? And let me ask: Is it meaningful to speak of pleasure as having meaning? Forgive me if this has all been dealt with in print already. I'd appreciate learning of any relevant sources. Arnie Cox --- end of quote --- ___________ To parallel the mightyfine recent note from York Guntherabout mental content, one could ask whether if we tie aesthetic pleasure to meaning we're requiring aesthetic pleasure to be "Intentional". (And then there's the question whether ALL pleasure is Intentional, but the answer seems obviously to be NO.) bill peck reed c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Oct 18 00:26:51 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id AAA11183 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 00:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA13264 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 00:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id XAA15237 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:05:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA15224 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from peak.org (boyd@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA13147 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:04:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from boyd@localhost) by peak.org (8.8.5/8.6.7) id VAA08386; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:04:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynn boyd X-Sender: boyd@kira To: nebbiolo@concentric.net cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance In-Reply-To: <199710180240.WAA19396@cliff.concentric.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Lynn boyd Status: O I should like to ask your consideration of the idea that any sensation which can be identified by some feeling, such as poignancy, elation, awe, has to carry meaning. Lynn Boyd boyd@peak.org ----------- On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 nebbiolo@concentric.net wrote: > > >> Does this mean that one couldn't have an aesthetic response to a > >>sunset or the paint flaking off a wall because they has no > >>'meaning'? Does it restrict aesthetic to the 'cultural' rather than > >>the 'natural'? > >> > >> Elizabeth C. > > > Hmmm - very good question, elizabeth. it would be embarrassing to say that > > there is nothing aesthetic about sunsets. but i guess it's equally > > embarrassing to say that sunsets have meaning. so i'm in an embarrassed > > dilemma. I was thinking, too simply, of the difference between simple > > sensations (whatever they are exactly) and "esthetic experiences' (as the > > saying goes): opera lovers don't just love high c or whatever - or they > > shouldn't. but now as to sunset lovers - -- > > > > bill peck > > reed c > > Perhaps beauty, whether in a sunset or in peeling paint, carries its > own meaning. In other words, the beautiful is intrinsically > meaningful. I understand that beauty is not always a consideration > in the aesthetic import of certain works of art, but it certainly > seems to be essentially involved in the aesthetics of a sunset. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Peter Theodore > > Say what you like, but such things do happen -- > not often, but they do happen. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Oct 18 14:30:54 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA04389 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA24201 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA27491 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:36:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA27481 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA23223 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:35:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EI900501CUKBK@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 13:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 13:35:08 -0400 (EDT) From: James Harbeck Subject: Aesthetics: wonderful spam, what does it mean? To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O I love the posts we're getting on this question. Intellectually stimulating but also concise. I suppose if we're going to talk about aesthetics and meaning, we should try to clarify what we mean by "meaning" and "aesthetics". Not that I expect everyone to agree, of course. But it's clear to me that if I'm going to say anything about it, I'd better state which definition I'm going with. Let me take a stab at "meaning." A classical conception of it might be the semiotic aliquid stat pro aliquo, something stands for something else. My problem with that is that we can talk about meaningful experiences, or for that matter the meaning of life, and these don't quite fit that conception. (They also don't go with the intentionalist restriction that some people place on meaning.) Perhaps it would be better to say that "A means something to B" is translatable as "A serves as a catalyst for the expansion of B's understanding in some respect." This may be open to the objection that we can say, for instance, "dog" means a furry animal etc. and yet the word existing by itself does not serve to expand anyone's understanding. However, the word said by itself--if I just hop around saying "dog, dog, dog," for instance, or if one simply sees it on a page--is not conveying meaning until we infer something about the intention of the utterer from it. Not that this means that meaning is thus bound to intention, of course; I can say that my trip to Israel was very meaningful for me, and by that mean that it enabled to me discover much more about where I really stood on certain questions of religious identity and culture. Which then leaves the question of what aesthesis may be. I'm sure we won't get consensus on this one, except that it somehow involves emotion. But does any experience of emotion count, or would, for instance, feeling fear or love or joy in some instance only count aesthetically as potential fodder for future aesthetic experience? In other words, does aesthesis require metacognition? Or, if we consider that metacognition is constantly operant (we not only feel fear, we are aware of our feeling fear), does it require a specific frame or code, i.e, "This experience does not carry harmful ramifications which outweigh the benefit of the experience?" My line of thought is that we enjoy our aesthetic experiences because they contribute to our store of experience, our understanding of the world--they allow us to increase our being. From this perspective, all aesthesis would be meaningful; and, if we accept that no experience is without some emotional valuation (and perhaps not everyone does accept that, but I do), then we may end up concluding that all meaning is aesthetic. I would be interested in learning what others mean by "meaning" and "aesthetic experience"--it's clear that there's some difference of opinion here! James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Oct 18 18:00:31 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA23317 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA18473 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:00:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA03809 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA03802 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:46:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA13671 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:46:18 -0500 (EST) From: psycho49@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA12083 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:44:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from tac-wa3-10.ix.netcom.com(204.32.157.106) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma012061; Sat Oct 18 16:44:39 1997 Message-ID: <3448F720.5B88@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:51:28 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: AESTHETICS AND ART X-URL: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl/net/aesthetics-list.html Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: psycho49@ix.netcom.com Status: O DO YOU THINK MORE IS REQUIRED FOR A THING TO BE ART THAN IT TO BE INDEXED BY SOMEONE AS ART OR ITS BEING DESIGNATED BY THE ART WORLD __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Oct 18 18:00:17 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA23236 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA06344 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA03006 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA02998 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:15:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA12242 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:14:59 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IOYKDCFWXC93MCEW@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:17:39 EST Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:17:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: meaning and emotion To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IOYKDCGA4I93MCEW@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" X-VMS-Cc: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O Harbeck's recent post was interesting, especially since the subjects of meaning and emotion were the subjects of a recent article in JAAC by Roger Shiner, who criticized Hume for blurring the distinction, thereby provoking some lively responses in the "comments" section of the journal. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Oct 18 19:23:05 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA11453 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:23:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA11026 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:23:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA04859 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:48:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA04851 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:48:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from brickbat9.mindspring.com (brickbat9.mindspring.com [207.69.200.12]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA24408 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (ip132.york.pa.pub-ip.psi.net [38.14.87.132]) by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA17322; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:48:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:48:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19971018184823.3d171620@pop.pipeline.com> X-Sender: mindstorm@pop.pipeline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: psycho49@ix.netcom.com From: Crispin Sartwell Subject: Re: Aesthetics: AESTHETICS AND ART Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Crispin Sartwell Status: O At 05:51 PM 10/18/97 +0000, psycho49@ix.netcom.com wrote: >DO YOU THINK MORE IS REQUIRED FOR A THING TO BE ART THAN IT TO BE >INDEXED BY SOMEONE AS ART OR ITS BEING DESIGNATED BY THE ART WORLD yes. >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You cursed brat; look what you've done. I'm melting, melting. What a world; what a world. Who would have thought that a good little girl like you could spoin my beautiful wickedness? __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Oct 19 00:03:39 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id AAA03357 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 00:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA07150 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 00:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA09324 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA09317 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:18:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from vianet.on.ca (root@icewall.vianet.on.ca [204.50.187.50]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA11356 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from nor-annex2-port19.vianet.on.ca (nor-annex2-port19.vianet.on.ca [204.187.89.179]) by vianet.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA11049 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710190315.XAA11049@vianet.on.ca> X-Sender: elzingad@mail.vianet.on.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: elzingad@vianet.on.ca (Daniel Elzinga) Subject: Aesthetics: visual art and aesthtics Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: elzingad@vianet.on.ca (Daniel Elzinga) Status: O To the comment: DO YOU THINK MORE IS REQUIRED FOR A THING TO BE ART THAN IT TO BE INDEXED BY SOMEONE AS ART OR ITS BEING DESIGNATED BY THE ART WORLD I also have a firm Yes to add, also Hello, I am one of those people who is registered to the aesthetics discussion group but seldom has anything to say. I have just enjoyed the reading. I am a visual artist, and recently I put up a new exhibition in my home town in North Bay, Ontario, Canada. I would like to get some feed back from people with Taste and an understanding of art. I think this might be an excellent opportunity for me even though it may seem like I am just looking for more audience. I just completed putting my show on line. I would like to invite all who might be interested to have a look (and read) of this show. I believe it might give me some important insight, if there are any comments, please direct them to me. The exhibition is at (http://tnt.vianet.on.ca/pages/elzingad/dangal2.html) I hope this is not too personal a favor to ask. Peace in complexity, Dan ==================================== Dan Elzinga -- elzingad@vianet.on.ca DEKS MULTIMDEIA personal http://tnt.vianet.on.ca/pages/elzingad/ ==================================== __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Oct 19 20:22:11 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA16412 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA02135 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA25910 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:13:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA25903 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:13:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA16903 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:12:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.7/(97/09/12 5.7)) id TAA08777; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:12:52 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] From: Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts003d10.stl-mo.concentric.net [206.83.85.70]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.7) id TAA02334; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710192312.TAA02334@mcfeely.concentric.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:12:28 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance Priority: normal References: <199710180240.WAA19396@cliff.concentric.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Status: O > I should like to ask your consideration of the idea that > any sensation which can be identified by some feeling, such as > poignancy, elation, awe, has to carry meaning. > > Lynn Boyd boyd@peak.org It would probably be helpful here to have something a bit more specific and concrete--perhaps an example or two. My first thought is that a feeling of elation or awe, for example, caused by a sensation would in some sense *be* the meaning of the sensation, that the sensation would be meaningful because it caused the elation or the awe. But that doesn't seem to be saying much. I thought that we were trying to capture something more with the notion that a sunset carried meaning, that to say that viewing a sunset was meaningful meant more than the feeling we got while viewing the sunset, though it would be related to that feeling. It seems to me that beauty is meaningful, that there is something about beauty as beauty that has significance, but I fear I would have a hard time putting together an argument for why I believe this is so. Robinson Jeffers wrote a poem entitled _Their Beauty Has More Meaning_, the last lines of which are "They will be here, and when the whole human race Has been like me rubbed out they will still be here: storms, moon and ocean, Dawn and the birds. And I say this: their beauty has more meaning Than the whole human race and the race of birds." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Theodore Say what you like, but such things do happen -- not often, but they do happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 20 01:50:31 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id BAA29644 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA22927 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id XAA03351 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA03344 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA23423 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:49:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.7/(97/09/12 5.7)) id AAA17229; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:49:52 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] From: Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts002d24.stl-mo.concentric.net [206.83.85.60]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.7) id AAA07172; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710200449.AAA07172@mcfeely.concentric.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:49:28 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Meaning of beauty Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Status: O Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Ruttkowski writes > Professor Theodore voiced an opinion which has been dominating > European thinking since the Renaissance: > > "It seems to me that beauty is meaningful, that there is something > >about beauty as beauty that has significance, but I fear I would have > >a hard time putting together an argument for why I believe this is > >so." > However, I think that we have to ad two words behind "meaningful": > "to us" (meaning, to us, "cultured" participants of a certain culture). > Otherwise, how would we explain that 1. many people have no sense > (appreciation) of beauty whatsoever? and 2. that truly different cultures > (those, that have not influenced each other) develop completely different > standards of beauty? and 3. that even within one culture these standards > can change considerably? > I would say: (Many) human beings have a capacity of developing an > appreciation of beauty. What they experience as beautiful is > determined by the standards of the culture in which they live. Actually, I think it's high time for this idea of the cultural determination of beauty and aesthetic standards to get some careful reconsideration. I suspect that a bit too much is being taken for granted. I heard recently of some research concerning the beauty of human faces which revealed a high level of consistency across cultures. The research involved the preferences of infants for certain types of faces, infants who had not had the chance to be influenced by the cultural hegemony of mass media. I am also struck by how we can appreciate the beauty or aesthetic merit of the art of different cultures. Though I do not deny that there are significant differences among cultures, I am wondering more and more if their likenesses in terms of aesthetic valuation have been given too little attention. I would like to see an experiment where the aesthetic judgments of works from various cultures were made by representatives from various cultures, and then compared. I suspect that, for example, a European judge and a Chinese judge might have much in common in terms of which European and Chinese works they judged superior, though they might give very different sorts of reasons for making the judgments they did. The same goes for time. Though some "standards of beauty" change over time, there is much that stays the same. Hence many of those things that were considered beautiful a long time ago are still considered beautiful today. As for people who have no appreciation of beauty, I have always maintained that beauty is there to be seen, even if some people are incapable of seeing it. The fact that some people are colorblind does not make colors a function of education and culture. > The term "meaning" is even more problematical. There are so many > kinds of meaning. I would prefer not to use that term in connection with > beauty and would rather just say "experience" instead. The word "meaning" > should be reserved for something that goes beyond the individual experience. > As always, forgive my clumsy English. Wolf I think that's the whole point, for me at least, and perhaps for others as well. I think that beauty does involve something beyond individual, subjective experience. When I feel compelled to say that there is meaning in a sunset, I mean something more than just that the sunset moves me, though that in itself might be sufficient to confer meaning on the event. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Theodore Say what you like, but such things do happen -- not often, but they do happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Oct 19 23:22:17 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA20988 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA06252 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA29882 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA29875 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.74]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id VAA08708 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (cc2000.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.73]) by ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (8.6.9/3.2W6) with ESMTP id LAA22743 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:02:56 +0900 Received: from [133.101.36.132] by cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (SMI-8.6/6.4J.6) id LAA14901; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:02:53 +0900 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:03:24 +0900 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: "Prof. Dr. Wolfgang RUTTKOWSKI" Subject: Aesthetics: Meaning of beauty Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Prof. Dr. Wolfgang RUTTKOWSKI" Status: O Professor Theodore voiced an opinion which has been dominating European thinking since the Renaissance: "It seems to me that beauty is meaningful, that there is something >about beauty as beauty that has significance, but I fear I would have >a hard time putting together an argument for why I believe this is >so." However, I think that we have to ad two words behind "meaningful": "to us" (meaning, to us, "cultured" participants of a certain culture). Otherwise, how would we explain that 1. many people have no sense (appreciation) of beauty whatsoever? and 2. that truly different cultures (those, that have not influenced each other) develop completely different standards of beauty? and 3. that even within one culture these standards can change considerably? I would say: (Many) human beings have a capacity of developing an appreciation of beauty. What they experience as beautiful is determined by the standards of the culture in which they live. The term "meaning" is even more problematical. There are so many kinds of meaning. I would prefer not to use that term in connection with beauty and would rather just say "experience" instead. The word "meaning" should be reserved for something that goes beyond the individual experience. As always, forgive my clumsy English. Wolf Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Ruttkowski Kitayama Skyheights 507, 23-1 Dotenjocho, Takagamine, Kita-ku, KYOTO, 603-JAPAN Tel. 81 75 492-5640 or 495-4486 Fax: 81 75 495-4486 or 761-6022 E-mail: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp URL: http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/department/lg/rutt-e.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Oct 19 23:21:53 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA20837 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:21:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA31455 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:21:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA00123 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:21:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA00105 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA30003 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:20:00 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IP09AVUGFK93LNL9@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:22:46 EST Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:22:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: Kant's aesthetics To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IP09AVUVHU93LNL9@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O I wonder whether in Kant's aesthetics his distinction between purposiveness (Zweckigkeit) and purpose (Zweck) has been needlessly complicated by some Kant scholars, such as Paul Guyer, Ted Cohen, and Donald Crawford. Isn't it simply the distinction between a general term and a singular term? That is, couldn't it be paraphrased as follows: "When I judge a thing beauti- ful, I say that it has purpose in general, but I do not say that it has some one purpose in particular, much less say what that one purpose is." __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 20 01:51:26 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id BAA29751 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:51:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA25386 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:51:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id XAA02622 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA02615 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:23:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ucs.orst.edu (leibowif@UCS.ORST.EDU [128.193.4.5]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id XAA07651 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:22:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by ucs.orst.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/13Sep96-1023AM) id AA31859; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:22:30 -0700 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:22:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Flo Leibowitz To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Kant's aesthetics In-Reply-To: <01IP09AVUVHU93LNL9@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Flo Leibowitz Status: O If I may say so, I think the complication is completely necessary, and Kant's point seems to be quite different from the one you suggest. He's observing that beautiful objects are structurally similar to objects that have purposes (that is, to objects whose form follows function). But this is only a matter of appearance, because beautiful objects have no function. Their form delights, but not because of a matching of form and practical function. Their form delights for other kinds of reasons. ******************************* Flo Leibowitz (leibowif@ucs.orst.edu) Philosophy Department Oregon State University Corvallis OR 97331 Phone: 541-737-5647 Fax: 541-737-2571 ******************************** On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU wrote: > I wonder whether in Kant's aesthetics his distinction between > purposiveness (Zweckigkeit) and purpose (Zweck) has been needlessly complicated > by some Kant scholars, such as Paul Guyer, Ted Cohen, and Donald Crawford. > Isn't it simply the distinction between a general term and a singular term? > That is, couldn't it be paraphrased as follows: "When I judge a thing beauti- > ful, I say that it has purpose in general, but I do not say that it has some > one purpose in particular, much less say what that one purpose is." > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 20 13:50:31 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA05285 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA11160 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA14245 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA14237 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA03533 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:56:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA12983; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:56:00 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance In-Reply-To: <199710180240.WAA19396@cliff.concentric.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 nebbiolo@concentric.net wrote: > Perhaps beauty, whether in a sunset or in peeling paint, carries its > own meaning. In other words, the beautiful is intrinsically > meaningful. I understand that beauty is not always a consideration > in the aesthetic import of certain works of art, but it certainly > seems to be essentially involved in the aesthetics of a sunset. Not necessarily essential; the sunset could signify unpleasant events for the viewer. I doubt whether 'aesthetic import' (when it's not preformed by specific social consensus), is anything more than remapped preconscious memories... { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace << > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < >> hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace << >> imagery online ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace << >> all-the-time ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace << Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 20 13:44:33 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA01318 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:44:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA24241 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA15487 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA15480 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:18:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu (mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu [199.17.81.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id KAA05653 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/09Oct95-1257PM) id AA00136; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:16:58 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:16:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Theodore Gracyk To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: my question Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Theodore Gracyk Status: O Thanks to those who answered my question on Friday -- the example comes from an article by J. Levinson, and draws on an incident at his home campus, U of Maryland. It's discussed in Levinson's "Messages in Art," to be found in his recent *The Pleasures of Aesthetics* but it first appeared in the Australasian Journal of Philosophy, 73 (1995). --Ted G. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 20 22:29:59 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id WAA28931 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:29:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA03306 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA11693 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:21:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA11686 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA04208 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.7/(97/09/12 5.7)) id VAA20871; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:20:24 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] From: Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts004d06.stl-mo.concentric.net [206.83.85.90]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.7) id VAA29928; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710210120.VAA29928@newman.concentric.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:20:03 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance Priority: normal References: <199710180240.WAA19396@cliff.concentric.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Status: O Brad Brace wrote: > On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 nebbiolo@concentric.net wrote: > > > Perhaps beauty, whether in a sunset or in peeling paint, carries its > > own meaning. In other words, the beautiful is intrinsically > > meaningful. I understand that beauty is not always a consideration > > in the aesthetic import of certain works of art, but it certainly > > seems to be essentially involved in the aesthetics of a sunset. > > Not necessarily essential; the sunset could signify unpleasant events for > the viewer. I doubt whether 'aesthetic import' (when it's not preformed by > specific social consensus), is anything more than remapped preconscious > memories... For a number of reasons, people could have particular associations with certain phenomena. Thus, if one had experienced a personal tragedy during a sunset, or had a tragic experience involving a horse, then a sunset or a painting with a horse in it might evoke unpleasant sensations in that person. These are exactly the kinds of associations that one must be aware of and put aside if necessary in evaluating aesthetic experience. It should be noted that one can also have positive associations which can skew their aesthetic judgment in the other direction. I discuss this issue in a short essay called "On Aesthetic Judgement" which can be found at http://www.concentric.net/~Nebbiolo/essays.htm. What you are speaking of is what I call "sentimental experience," which is discussed in the section "Aesthetic experience and its counterfeits." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Theodore Say what you like, but such things do happen -- not often, but they do happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 20 18:52:35 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA17555 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA11724 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA28776 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA28753 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:23:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA28832 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:22:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (ip91.york.pa.pub-ip.psi.net [38.14.87.91]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA28194; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19971020162140.3d1ffe40@pop.pipeline.com> X-Sender: mindstorm@pop.pipeline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Flo Leibowitz From: Crispin Sartwell Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Kant's aesthetics Cc: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU, aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Crispin Sartwell Status: O At 09:22 PM 10/19/97 -0700, Flo Leibowitz wrote: > > > >If I may say so, I think the complication is completely necessary, and >Kant's point seems to be quite different from the one you suggest. He's >observing that beautiful objects are structurally similar to objects that >have purposes (that is, to objects whose form follows function). But this >is only a matter of appearance, because beautiful objects have no >function. Their form delights, but not because of a matching of form and >practical function. Their form delights for other kinds of reasons. on the other side coomaraswamy defines beauty as suitedness to function. but both of these are extreme and wrong. when i say that naomi campbell or brad pitt are beautiful, i am definitely saying that i've got a use for them; their beauty is useful. it has never ceased to amaze me that kant and others would take a reclining venus, for example, and describe it as detached in any way from human desires. beauty is sex. > > >******************************* >Flo Leibowitz (leibowif@ucs.orst.edu) >Philosophy Department >Oregon State University >Corvallis OR 97331 >Phone: 541-737-5647 >Fax: 541-737-2571 >******************************** > >On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU wrote: > >> I wonder whether in Kant's aesthetics his distinction between >> purposiveness (Zweckigkeit) and purpose (Zweck) has been needlessly complicated >> by some Kant scholars, such as Paul Guyer, Ted Cohen, and Donald Crawford. >> Isn't it simply the distinction between a general term and a singular term? >> That is, couldn't it be paraphrased as follows: "When I judge a thing beauti- >> ful, I say that it has purpose in general, but I do not say that it has some >> one purpose in particular, much less say what that one purpose is." >> __________________________________________________________ >> Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >> To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >> List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >> Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl >> > >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- You cursed brat; look what you've done. I'm melting, melting. What a world; what a world. Who would have thought that a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness? __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Oct 21 15:14:05 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA17062 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA17837 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA29911 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA29893 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:36:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA21944 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA18338; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance In-Reply-To: <199710210120.VAA29928@newman.concentric.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 nebbiolo@concentric.net wrote: > For a number of reasons, people could have particular associations > with certain phenomena. Thus, if one had experienced a personal > tragedy during a sunset, or had a tragic experience involving a > horse, then a sunset or a painting with a horse in it might evoke > unpleasant sensations in that person. These are exactly the kinds of > associations that one must be aware of and put aside if necessary in > evaluating aesthetic experience. It should be noted that one can > also have positive associations which can skew their aesthetic > judgment in the other direction. I discuss this issue in a short > essay called "On Aesthetic Judgement" which can be found at > http://www.concentric.net/~Nebbiolo/essays.htm. What you are > speaking of is what I call "sentimental experience," which is > discussed in the section "Aesthetic experience and its counterfeits." Do you then imply that there's a universal aesthetic response to "a sunset" or to "a red painting?" "there are no more universals -- that is to say, there is nothing except lines of variation. the general terms are the coordinates which have no meaning other than to make possible the estimation of a continuous variation. it matters little if general terms are used in order to reflect on apparatuses: they are the names given to variables .... melodies of development themselves enter into relations of counterpoint, each spilling over its frame and becoming the motif of another such that all of nature becomes an immense melody and flow of bodies." { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace << > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < >> hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace << >> imagery online ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace << >> all-the-time ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace << Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Oct 21 19:58:54 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA05427 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:58:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA06311 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:58:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA20096 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:24:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA20083 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:24:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id RAA27578 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from hub.ubc.ca.hub.ubc.ca [137.82.125.200] by mail.unixg.ubc.ca with smtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0xNmhy-0005Wq-00; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:23:27 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971021222329.006a4598@pop.unixg.ubc.ca> X-Sender: rseamon@pop.unixg.ubc.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:23:29 -0700 To: James Harbeck From: Roger Seamon Subject: Re: Aesthetics: wonderful spam, what does it mean? Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O Bosanquet has a nice quotation where he equates meaning in art more or less with allegory, i.e. what is perceived stands for something, or is the visible sign of somethning below or above. In my field itwas new criticsim which introduced the idea that art should mean [in this sense, though they overtoy denied they allegorised] in this sense, that there was an "underneath" which theycalled structure but which turns out to be thematic patterns. Being a bit coarse, I think thematic meaning [some form of allegory] is what people mean when they say art means [not that is is meaningful to us, ie we care about it]. The idea that art is vaulablke because it means often now supplants the idea that artists DO something [imitate, express, and arrnage formal things] well. [This should not be confued with the Macleish idea about being not meaning]. Then Bosanquet suggests that meaning is itself a form of beauty, that the thematic patterns critics find are a sort of intellectual form of beauty. David Bordwell in Making Meaning pursues this idea at very fine length. Roger Seamon Home (604) 683-5662 Department of English Work (604) 822-8619 University of British Columbia Fax (604) 822-4520 Vancouver, B. C. V6T 1Z1 Canada __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 22 01:59:00 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id BAA21150 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA14839 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id XAA00927 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:18:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA00920 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:18:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA27285 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:18:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi [206.173.119.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.7/(97/09/12 5.7)) id AAA17042; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:18:03 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts005d07.stl-mo.concentric.net [206.83.85.115]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.7) id AAA17004; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710220418.AAA17004@marconi.concentric.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: nebbiolo@concentric.net To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:17:36 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Spamular Balance Priority: normal References: <199710210120.VAA29928@newman.concentric.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nebbiolo@concentric.net Status: O Brad Brace wrote: > On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 nebbiolo@concentric.net wrote: > > > For a number of reasons, people could have particular associations > > with certain phenomena. Thus, if one had experienced a personal > > tragedy during a sunset, or had a tragic experience involving a > > horse, then a sunset or a painting with a horse in it might evoke > > unpleasant sensations in that person. These are exactly the kinds of > > associations that one must be aware of and put aside if necessary in > > evaluating aesthetic experience. It should be noted that one can > > also have positive associations which can skew their aesthetic > > judgment in the other direction. I discuss this issue in a short > > essay called "On Aesthetic Judgement" which can be found at > > http://www.concentric.net/~Nebbiolo/essays.htm. What you are > > speaking of is what I call "sentimental experience," which is > > discussed in the section "Aesthetic experience and its counterfeits." > > > Do you then imply that there's a universal aesthetic response to "a > sunset" or to "a red painting?" To a certain extent, yes. I am not saying that every single person's experience of a sunset will be the same, nor am I saying that any two people will have precisely the same experience. I do think, however, that the aesthetic experiences of different individuals to the beauty of different sunsets do have something, even a lot, in common. There will be many small and subtle differences, no doubt, in the experiences of these different individuals, but there will be, I believe, great areas of common ground such that if any of them say something to the effect of, "I was deeply moved by the beauty of that sunset," the others would know from their own experience what that person meant. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Theodore Say what you like, but such things do happen -- not often, but they do happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Oct 21 23:30:27 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA09028 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA16715 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA27043 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:55:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA27036 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from donald.uoregon.edu (donald.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.6]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA06717 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from OREGON.UOREGON.EDU by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #26538) id <01IP2UTCU6JS8ZGFUR@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:55:04 PDT Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:55:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Arnie Cox Subject: Aesthetics: Meaning and Beauty In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19971021222329.006a4598@pop.unixg.ubc.ca> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Arnie Cox Status: O On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Roger Seamon wrote: > Bosanquet has a nice quotation where he equates meaning in art more or less > with allegory, i.e. what is perceived stands for something, or is the > visible sign of somethning below or above. In my field itwas new criticsim > which introduced the idea that art should mean [in this sense, though they > overtoy denied they allegorised] in this sense, that there was an > "underneath" which theycalled structure but which turns out to be thematic > patterns. Being a bit coarse, I think thematic meaning [some form of > allegory] is what people mean when they say art means [not that is is > meaningful to us, ie we care about it]. The idea that art is vaulablke > because it means often now supplants the idea that artists DO something > [imitate, express, and arrnage formal things] well. [This should not be > confued with the Macleish idea about being not meaning]. Then Bosanquet > suggests that meaning is itself a form of beauty, that the thematic patterns > critics find are a sort of intellectual form of beauty. David Bordwell in > Making Meaning pursues this idea at very fine length. Prof. Seamon et al. I'm trying to develop an hypothesis in which meaning emerges from experience, comparison and "understanding". I recognized some similar ideas in your post and wanted to ask your thoughts (and anyone else's) on the following. Let's say that we can't help comparing each experience to prior experience; that this is a sort of biological imperative (that goes on constantly, and is for the most part automatically and unconsciously). Then, regardless of what the artist intends, we would be inclined to compare our experience of the work to our experience of other things. I think this would give go a long way toward giving us Bosanquet's "allegory". Meaning would then emerge (at least in some part) in something like the following way: "Seeing" (imagining/remembering) one experience as the same-and-yet-different as some other experience would itself have meaning for the organism ("food", "danger", "innocuous"). This aspect of meaning from experience and understanding is manifest in strong form in the "Ah-hah!" experience and the joy/pleasure of (finally) understanding, but it is most often tacit or barely conscious ("Red light ahead; slow to a stop"). Meaning would correspond to the number of comparisons motivated by the experience (depth, breadth), the difficulty of making comparisons (mystery), and the significance of the comparisons made (marked good/bad, pleasant/unpleasant, with vast range between experiencing individuals). Meaning would be beautiful because it would emerge from comparison and understanding - marked as pleasant by biological imperative - and from a blend of present and remembered/imagined experience. (I think this would allow for "sweet grief".) These ideas emerge from my reading of Johnson, Turner, Damasio, and Rosch. I haven't read Bosanquet or Bordwell, nor Dissanayake's _Homo Aestheticus_ yet. I think the hypo-hypothesis bear a resemblance to (or compare well with) the following from {brad brace}: > The visible world is haunted by the possibility of another world. My > images are therefore not aesthetic in their beauty, solidity or > completeness, but precisely in their transparency, fragility and > potentiality. This work is a tableau of imperfect fragments that seek, > in a crippled construction, in an open work of art, the obverse of the > image. These images, in their incomplete state, thus do not offer > themselves to our gaze as an object, but invite the gaze as it were to > enter and slip between the components, the little things, the elements > of which it is made up. The viewer has to force a way into the image in > order to understand its essence. It is not a matter of seeing the > things-in-themselves, but of penetration, of getting between things. I'm not sure about works "seeking", but inviting our gaze to "slip", and meaning as not in the things-in-themselves, seems consonant. Arnie Cox __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 22 10:21:33 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id KAA17430 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA06213 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:21:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id HAA07692 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:19:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id HAA07682 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:19:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from puma.wmin.ac.uk (pp@puma.wmin.ac.uk [161.74.92.94]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id HAA14996 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:18:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from jaguar.wmin.ac.uk (actually host jaguar) by puma.wmin.ac.uk with SMTP (MMTA); Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:16:19 +0100 Received: by jaguar.wmin.ac.uk (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA19097; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:17:50 +0100 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:17:50 +0100 (BST) From: Zoe Read X-Sender: dvwld@jaguar To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: culture and society - re: Raymond Williams Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zoe Read Status: O i would be interested in anyone's opinion of whether 'art' is defineable, or whether its perception is just a personal judgement related to our social status. - Is 'art' the same as 'The Arts', or are there specific boundaries? __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 22 20:32:42 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA09590 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:32:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA27701 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:32:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA12498 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:36:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA12491 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:36:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA16525 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:35:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EIH004013VR2E@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:02:15 -0400 (EDT) From: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: culture and society - re: Raymond Williams In-reply-to: To: Zoe Read Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Zoe Read wrote: > i would be interested in anyone's opinion of whether 'art' is defineable, > or whether its perception is just a personal judgement related to our > social status. I hope those aren't the only two options we're allowed. Specifically, I'd say there's a lot more to it than just social status. "Art" certainly is a learned category. So are all things named by words, of course, but art in particular is not something which could be said to have an existence independent of the perceivers and namers; and, because the judgements on which it is based are not strictly "logical" (and thus clearly defined) but rather keyed to emotive responses, which vary from person to person, the idea of coming up with a clear definition is bound to be a minefield. Short answer: my vote is against there being a clear definition. More like a set of relative vectors and points of reference. Trying to talk about art using language is like trying to talk about the stars by pointing: on a basic level, it's effective, but there comes a point where it breaks down. And remember: the finger is always just a finger. - Is 'art' the same as 'The Arts', or are there specific > boundaries? I think the general usage is looser in the case of the former than in that of the latter. Also the latter has institutional connotations not always carried by the former. As you may expect, I don't consider it worthwhile to attempt some solid-seeming demarcation. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 22 22:58:17 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id WAA14356 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA06671 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA20045 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA20038 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id UAA29557 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:25:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA107932; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:22:22 -0600 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:22:21 -0600 (MDT) From: "John W. Heintz" To: Zoe Read Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: culture and society - re: Raymond Williams In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "John W. Heintz" Status: O The best place to start remains Francis Sparshott's "The Theory of the Arts" -- lots on definition and strategies, all the while paying attention to the arts and 'the arts'. john heintz On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Zoe Read wrote: > > i would be interested in anyone's opinion of whether 'art' is defineable, > or whether its perception is just a personal judgement related to our > social status. - Is 'art' the same as 'The Arts', or are there specific > boundaries? > __________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 23 12:58:29 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA11927 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:58:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA01495 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:58:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id IAA02592 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:36:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id IAA02570 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from puma.wmin.ac.uk (pp@puma.wmin.ac.uk [161.74.92.94]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id IAA10290 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from jaguar.wmin.ac.uk (actually host jaguar) by puma.wmin.ac.uk with SMTP (MMTA); Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:33:11 +0100 Received: by jaguar.wmin.ac.uk (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA22917; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:34:39 +0100 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:34:39 +0100 (BST) From: Zoe Read X-Sender: dvwld@jaguar To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zoe Read Status: O Thanks for everybodies excellent replies, and I've got another taxing question for you! Do you think that there can be good or bad art? Is art that is created for percievably only political reasons, or seemingly purely designed to shock, (such as Damian Hirst's 'Mother and Calf Divided' or the Sensation exhibition at the Royal Academy, London) 'bad' art, or mass art, and therefore less relevant as a genuine work of 'Fine Art', or is it just as valid BECAUSE it raises current issues and provokes controvery? __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 24 17:00:33 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA11458 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:00:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA20826 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:00:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA00735 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA00728 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:59:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA01610 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:58:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #35) id ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <4041264@isis.reed.edu> Date: 23 Oct 97 15:59:28 PDT From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Kant's aesthetics To: leibowif@ucs.orst.edu, CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O --- Flo Leibowitz wrote: Kant's point seems to be quite different from the one you suggest. He's observing that beautiful objects are structurally similar to objects that have purposes (that is, to objects whose form follows function). But this is only a matter of appearance, because beautiful objects have no function. Their form delights, but not because of a matching of form and practical function. Their form delights for other kinds of reasons. _________ Pretty good, Flo, but not quite. The purpose that's supposed to be involved is to delight us perceptually. No? bill peck reed c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Oct 25 16:58:50 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id QAA22597 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA14399 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA02661 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA02653 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin41.mail.aol.com (mrin41.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.151]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA16736 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:05:13 -0500 (EST) From: Paryser@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin41.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA12082 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971025160357_-23912814@mrin41.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Symbolism of eyes and hands in art Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Paryser@aol.com Status: O I am researching the symbolism of the inclusion of eyes and hands in art. These images are not part of a figurative expression rather they include pairs of eyes dispersed throughout a work of art, tracings or imprints of hands. I would appreciate any information on this subject. Many thanks. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Oct 26 01:35:30 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id BAA25206 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA11187 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id XAA10909 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:38:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA10902 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ucs.orst.edu (leibowif@UCS.ORST.EDU [128.193.4.5]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id XAA10171 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by ucs.orst.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/13Sep96-1023AM) id AA00168; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:38:00 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:38:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Flo Leibowitz To: William Peck Cc: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Kant's aesthetics In-Reply-To: <4041264@isis.reed.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Flo Leibowitz Status: O Hi Bill... You're using "function" in a misleading way. For Kant, the forms of beautiful objects delight us, but this is not their function, in the sense of some purpose. Objects whose beauty is free beauty are pleasing to us even though this pleasingness is not connected to some purpose that the object serves. As I understand Kant, this pleasingness is conected to their form, but the form is not connected to some purpose. It's not an accident that Kant discusses beauty in the same volume as he discusses teleology in nature. He wants to distinguish objects whose forms serve a function (in the sense that natural scientists understand it) from objects whose form only SEEMS to have such a function. ******************************* Flo Leibowitz (leibowif@ucs.orst.edu) Philosophy Department Oregon State University Corvallis OR 97331 Phone: 541-737-5647 Fax: 541-737-2571 ******************************** On 23 Oct 1997, William Peck wrote: > --- Flo Leibowitz wrote: > Kant's point seems to be quite different from the one you suggest. He's > observing that beautiful objects are structurally similar to objects that > have purposes (that is, to objects whose form follows function). But this > is only a matter of appearance, because beautiful objects have no > function. Their form delights, but not because of a matching of form and > practical function. Their form delights for other kinds of reasons. > _________ > > Pretty good, Flo, but not quite. The purpose that's supposed to be involved is > to delight us perceptually. No? > bill peck > reed c > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Oct 26 14:29:25 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA01149 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:29:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA09260 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:29:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA23613 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:45:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA23605 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:44:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu (mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu [199.17.81.1]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA10947 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/09Oct95-1257PM) id AA03001; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:44:33 -0600 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:44:33 -0600 (CST) From: Theodore Gracyk To: Flo Leibowitz Cc: William Peck , CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Kant's aesthetics In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Theodore Gracyk Status: O However, there is the interesting passage in section 15 of the third Critique, Kant gives the example of the botanist who admires a flower's beauty. Now, the botanist is admiring the flower's form, but the botanist knows that the form is intimately connected to that form's function in the plant's reproductive history. What the botanist does is "pays no attention" to this knowledge "when he judges the flower by taste." Now, Flo is right to say that delighting us is not the flower's function. But the "pleasingness" is connected to the thing's objective function. It's just that that function is not taken into account in the judgment of taste. Thus taste is a capacity of reflective judgment in which we can make a judgment about form even when we DON'T know the thing's objective function, and we can have a cognitive interest in it (cognitive, because the judgment involves both imagination and understanding) that is not our usual cognitive interest in things. The form MAY be connected to a purpose, but we don't need to make the connection to take an interest in the object. --Ted Gracyk On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Flo Leibowitz wrote: > > > > Hi Bill... > > You're using "function" in a misleading way. For Kant, the forms of > beautiful objects delight us, but this is not their function, in the sense > of some purpose. > Objects whose beauty is free beauty are pleasing to us even though > this pleasingness is not connected to some purpose that the object serves. > As I understand Kant, this pleasingness is conected to their form, but the > form is not connected to some purpose. > It's not an accident that Kant discusses beauty in the same volume > as he discusses teleology in nature. He wants to distinguish objects whose > forms serve a function (in the sense that natural scientists understand > it) from objects whose form only SEEMS to have such a function. > > ******************************* > Flo Leibowitz (leibowif@ucs.orst.edu) > Philosophy Department > Oregon State University > Corvallis OR 97331 > Phone: 541-737-5647 > Fax: 541-737-2571 > ******************************** > > On 23 Oct 1997, William Peck wrote: > > > --- Flo Leibowitz wrote: > > Kant's point seems to be quite different from the one you suggest. He's > > observing that beautiful objects are structurally similar to objects that > > have purposes (that is, to objects whose form follows function). But this > > is only a matter of appearance, because beautiful objects have no > > function. Their form delights, but not because of a matching of form and > > practical function. Their form delights for other kinds of reasons. > > _________ > > > > Pretty good, Flo, but not quite. The purpose that's supposed to be involved is > > to delight us perceptually. No? > > bill peck > > reed c > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Oct 26 17:33:34 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA27126 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA09938 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA27037 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:59:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA27030 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:59:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA12155 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:58:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EIO00B01CS15T@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:57:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:57:37 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck Subject: Aesthetics: Kant hear you To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O I'm just wondering if anyone is going to venture an evaluation of the correctness of Kant's position on these issues. So far it's all just about what Kant did or didn't say. Important if your main fascination is with what went on in Kant's head, or with the history of the way people have thought about aesthetics; but for those of us who (perverted though this may sound) only care to the extent that it was accurate, there's something left to address. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 27 18:46:09 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA11628 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:46:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA13290 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:46:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA04853 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA04803 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id OAA05388 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #35) id ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:41:55 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4052949@isis.reed.edu> Date: 26 Oct 97 13:06:51 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Kant hear you To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O >...but for those of us who (perverted though this may sound) only care to the extent that it was accurate, there's something left to address.< This is no doubt true. But surely before one can determine the truth of what Kant said, one must come to some sort of agreement about what he *did* say. I usually like to know what's meant by a claim before I try to decide its truth or falsity. All good wishes, Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 27 02:09:34 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id CAA09851 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 02:09:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA19670 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 02:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id AAA10231 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id AAA10224 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:11:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ucs.orst.edu (leibowif@UCS.ORST.EDU [128.193.4.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id AAA16005 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by ucs.orst.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/13Sep96-1023AM) id AA12359; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:10:27 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:10:27 -0800 (PST) From: Flo Leibowitz To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Kant's aesthetics defended, in part In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971020162140.3d1ffe40@pop.pipeline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Flo Leibowitz Status: O I think Kant is more right than he sometime gets credit for regarding some significant aspects of beauty. Let's go back to one of Crispin's examples... When someone says that Brad Pitt is beautiful, it seems to me they are being delighted by a dependent kind of beauty. That's because Brad Pitt's being beautiful amounts to his being a beautiful man (that is, a beautiful male person). His beauty, therefore, presupposes a concept of what a man ought to be; that is, it presupposes a concept and an answering perfection. Of course, what a man ought to be like is a contextualized affair. Kant's views seem consistent with this in a general way, in that dependent beauty depends on the ends we ascribe to the dependently-beautiful object. Kant observes (in the same section as the discussion of the botanist) that designs tattooed on a warrior are intended to make him look warlike, and not to make him look gentler; and, thus, though designs are sometimes used to soften the look of something, in this case softness is not suited to the object's particular end, and so would not be pleasing. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Oct 27 23:27:17 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA18790 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:27:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA01009 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:27:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA25752 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:05:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA25725 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:05:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSRGSMTP10 (upimsrgsmtp10.msn.com [207.68.152.54]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA00392 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:04:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from upmajb02.msn.com - 204.95.110.74 by msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:03:14 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 02:03:53 UT From: "Carlos Amador" Message-Id: To: "Zoe Read" Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: RE: Aesthetics: culture and society - re: Raymond Williams Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Carlos Amador" Status: O I applaud James Harbeck's 'networking' of the question of Art, Arts, etc. To think vectorially about something is a fine lesson I have taken from Michel Serres in the field of Philosophy of Science, and to hear somewhat echoed by Mr. Harbeck is a smashing thing to come home to. A brief answer to Zoe Read's question of Bad Art and good art, and mass art might be found within the pages of Jean-Luc Nancy's book The Muses. Otherwise, it seems to me that the very fact that art operates on a level that betrays the type of binarism that is Bad and Good, Mass and Fine, requires the viewer to look not at the piece of art itself, but rather at the margins that surround that piece of Art. As a huge fan of Damien Hirst and a marxist, I find that the simultaneity of Charles Saatchi's incredible consumption of the Northern Hemisphere's contemporary art market, the almost totally unpopulist intention of Mother and Child Divided, and the fact that I find the piece breathtaking in a religious sense, is at least a start on how to think about Art vectorially while trying to understand the economic and philosophical margins that create Art. C. Amador (A bit incoherent today) ---------- From: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu on behalf of James Harbeck Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 2:02 PM To: Zoe Read Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: culture and society - re: Raymond Williams On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Zoe Read wrote: > i would be interested in anyone's opinion of whether 'art' is defineable, > or whether its perception is just a personal judgement related to our > social status. I hope those aren't the only two options we're allowed. Specifically, I'd say there's a lot more to it than just social status. "Art" certainly is a learned category. So are all things named by words, of course, but art in particular is not something which could be said to have an existence independent of the perceivers and namers; and, because the judgements on which it is based are not strictly "logical" (and thus clearly defined) but rather keyed to emotive responses, which vary from person to person, the idea of coming up with a clear definition is bound to be a minefield. Short answer: my vote is against there being a clear definition. More like a set of relative vectors and points of reference. Trying to talk about art using language is like trying to talk about the stars by pointing: on a basic level, it's effective, but there comes a point where it breaks down. And remember: the finger is always just a finger. - Is 'art' the same as 'The Arts', or are there specific > boundaries? I think the general usage is looser in the case of the former than in that of the latter. Also the latter has institutional connotations not always carried by the former. As you may expect, I don't consider it worthwhile to attempt some solid-seeming demarcation. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Oct 28 04:04:48 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id EAA12425 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:04:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA25091 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:04:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id CAA10789 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:02:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id CAA10735 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:02:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from atl1.america.net (ns2.america.net [199.170.121.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA07705 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from wadowick (usr1-11.p-c-net.net [208.147.137.51]) by atl1.america.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA11864 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:00:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 02:00:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710280700.CAA11864@atl1.america.net> X-Sender: wadowick@p-c-net.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: "James L. Wadowick" Subject: Aesthetics: Bravo! Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "James L. Wadowick" Status: O Hi Norman, Feedback: I am amazed at your long-term and dedicated accordion interest. I have come to the conclusion that it is a mixture of interest in music and the sociollogy of the music world. You are so right about so many things. I am definitely stereotyped in your article. I fought the polka and "lady of Spain" image all my life by sticking to "classical" music and jazz. Recently (just a couple of weeks ago), I was asked to perform for a Rotary Club outdoor luncheon. I knew my music dept. colleagues would be there, and to be truthfull i was uneasy about performing on the accordion in front of them even at my advanced age of 62! I never play accordion around the dept for anything except during Fall quarter when I perform some Bach Inventions for my theory class since it is a chance to show off the accordion playing free-bass classical music. I couldn't refuse the Rotary job because (1) I was to be paid #50 for 20 minutes work, and (2) the person hiring me was a long-time accordion lover (I had played two wedding jobs for his family) and he was trustee of TSU. I bring up this job inparticular because it demonstrates almost everything you have said in your article. As I strolled around, I knew the audience was having some difficulty relating to the accordion sound and style of music I was playing. I had played on the local radio station many times, and the manager and head DJ was at the dinner. In fact, he is one of my ardent fans. Suddenly, he (the DJ) called out, "Play a polka!" I responded by playing Beer Barrell Polka. Strangely, i felt insulted, since I am one of those "classically-trained" accordionists you speak of. All my life I have practcied classical "transcription" and originally accordion pieces (unfortunately that no one ever wants to listen to). I have to almost take myself out of my own body and pretend that I am someone else in order to get myself to play commercial jobs (altough, in recent years I have become quite good at such performing). This summer, while visiting with family, I was confronted with an audience of old and younger family members that had known me for years. The family first thrust an old accordion into brother-in-law's lap and demanded that he play some old Italian tunes. I knew what was coming next! The accordion soon its way to MY lap. I played whatever the family requested. Finally, my nephew (who is a wealthy plastic surgeon), asked me to play "the most difficult Piece I knew". I responded by playing my own free-bass arrangement of "Flight of the Bumble-Bee". I didn't feel the audience had as much enthusiasm for the piece as it had for some of the Italian and other pop tunes I had played. There was the expected awe inspired by the technical difficulty of the piece, but nothing more. I felt only slightly vindicated. I was with the family for a week, and they heard me practicing countless hours. The only positive feedback I heard during that time was a comment from my 53-yar-old niece that she liked the French medley I was spracticing. You are totally correct in saying that, if an audience recognizes a tune, it will respond to it positively. Playing the classics is a waste of time. The years that Magnante played, there was a public made up of accordionists who were "classically" trained. His pieces were appreciated, and he had a large audience. But now, even accordion clubs don't appreciate "classical" music. Marion Kelly of the Bay Area Accordion Club told me that the club members dislike classical music. I was shocked when I heard this from her. The music I have concentrated on in my accordion catalogue is classically and jazz oriented, but the requests I get from customers is either (1) French musette style music or (2) pop or country arrangements. The classical pieces are never purchased. It's probably a good thing, since they are too difficult for accordionists to play anyway, and i don't want to cheat customers (even though my catlague clearly states the playing level of all the pieces). Ssssso, I continue to practice classical music and pop music of all types so that I am in a position to satisfy all types of listeners. I am still hiding behind the trumpet and violin at my place of emplyment...and teaching classically oriented theory and music ed classes. I can still use the classical approach in my studio because the public expects it for the instruments I teach and because of my position. I often try to take music away from students and tell them to "play by ear", but they either can't do it or complain bitterly that (surprisingly) playing by ear is either wrong or too difficult. This statement always just amazes me, because ALL music is basically played "by ear". Music notation is just a means of "storage". The ultimate goal of all concert artists is memorizing a large body of pieces. But, memorization is just the hard route to playing by ear anyway! When a piece is memorized it is just being recalled "by ear" perfectly. The famous violin teacher suzuki finally got it right when he taught all his pieces "by ear" which got the students finally listening to themselves (tone quality, pitch, interpretation, etc) instead of concentrating on reproducing what is written on the page. Yes, I resented the "Lady" syndrome. I wished that contino had never been born. I also side with Galla-Rini in his opinion that Weld and Floren did more harm than good to the accordion image. But, you are right, too, Norman, that exposure and familiarity are the only salvation for the accordion. Nowadays, Cg "Endangered Species" JaMar Music (Jim Wadowick) 215 Glenwood Ave. Troy, AL 36081 334-566-1664 E-mail: wadowick@p-c-net.net __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Oct 28 17:22:57 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA19515 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:22:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA32006 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA11815 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA11806 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:39:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from atl1.america.net (ns2.america.net [199.170.121.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA25338 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from wadowick (usr1-0.p-c-net.net [208.147.137.40]) by atl1.america.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21315 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:38:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:38:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710281838.NAA21315@atl1.america.net> X-Sender: wadowick@p-c-net.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: "James L. Wadowick" Subject: Aesthetics: Sorry Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "James L. Wadowick" Status: O Sorry - my computer sent the message to the wrong ploace AGAIN! PLEASE DON'T SEND SARCASTIC MESSAGES BACK TO ME. "Endangered Species" JaMar Music (Jim Wadowick) 215 Glenwood Ave. Troy, AL 36081 334-566-1664 E-mail: wadowick@p-c-net.net __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Oct 28 21:09:00 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA10220 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:08:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA21015 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:08:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA00264 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:40:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA00248 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:40:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [205.252.116.101]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA17930 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:39:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from sashai.erols.com (rcm-as6s47.erols.com [207.172.62.110]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA29239; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:41:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710282341.SAA29239@smtp1.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" To: "James L. Wadowick" , Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Sorry Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:33:57 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" Status: O JimW writes re' his accordion post, > Sorry - my computer sent the message to the wrong ploace AGAIN! PLEASE > DON'T SEND SARCASTIC MESSAGES BACK TO ME. > "Endangered Species" Gee whiz, Jim, this is the second aesthetics post I've wanted to repost to another web list. I think you speak concisely of attachment by individuals to aesthetic value based on their experience, which may be limited. It is a great post, a terrific lesson and I don't need Oregonians arguing over Kant to understand it. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 29 17:11:34 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA09392 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:11:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA13606 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA17828 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA17820 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:37:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA16622 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:37:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EIT00701Q99G7@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:36:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:36:45 -0500 (EST) From: tickly prickly Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Meaning of beauty In-reply-to: <199710200449.AAA07172@mcfeely.concentric.net> To: nebbiolo@concentric.net Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tickly prickly Status: O In regards to this statement: > As for people who have no appreciation of beauty, I have always > maintained that beauty is there to be seen, even if some people are > incapable of seeing it. The fact that some people are colorblind > does not make colors a function of education and culture. Considering beauty akin to the phenomenon of color is to place beauty in the object, as if an artist (for example) could work a sculpture until all of the sudden the sculpture begins to eminate or radiate degrees of beauty, in the way a painter can mix pigments until the paints eminate or radiate degrees of blue. I think this is absurd, especially when one considers the fickle nature of art appreciation -- if a piece is made that is "truly" beautiful, should it not be appreciated as such for all time? We all know the problematics with that question. Let's be a bit more careful with our analogies and dismissals. ---------------------------------------------------- C.D.S. Tufts/Museum School, Boston __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 29 17:03:01 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA04521 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:03:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA18893 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA21190 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA21174 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:31:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA04271 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EIT00F01RSW43@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:10:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:10:08 -0500 (EST) From: tickly prickly Subject: Aesthetics: Re: your mail In-reply-to: To: Zoe Read Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tickly prickly Status: RO On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Zoe Read wrote: > Thanks for everybodies excellent replies, and I've got another taxing > question for you! Do you think that there can be good or bad art? Is art > that is created for percievably > only political reasons, or seemingly purely designed to shock, (such as > Damian Hirst's 'Mother and Calf Divided' or the Sensation exhibition at > the Royal Academy, London) 'bad' art, or mass art, and therefore less > relevant as a genuine work of 'Fine Art', or is it just as valid BECAUSE > it raises current issues and provokes controvery? where i am currently studying (The School of the Museum of FIne Arts, Boston, or "The Museum School") there seems to exist a breakdown of types of expression (with gray areas of course) that create a sort of quadrangle, with workmanship, political expression, aesthetic expression (which houses issues of beauty), and conceptual expression (that sort of visual philosophy that arose out of modernist meanderings) at each vertex; and this triagle is affected into 3-D by interpreted aspects (which include emotion, absurdity, psychology). This model's geometry is far to sharp and simple to be considered anything more than an efficient construction, but it allows for judgements of effectiveness to be made for the sake of an artist improving their work. So, in response to your query, expressive works can be considered as multi-faceted and weighed according to my (or anyone else's) little model to decide upon effectiveness, and these issues of effectiveness inevitably correspond to issues outside of the expressive work itself (e.g., when considering political expressiveness, the political message must be considered along with the way it is dealt with). It is far to simple to qualify or disqualify a piece without having a rounded (that is to say, at least a 3-D) consideration of the work. More successful works question and/or enforce ideas through dimensions, and often times forge new dimensions of relevance. In my opinion, Mr. Hirst's piece's (which I only saw in magazines) seemed to fall short of forging new dimensions, and fell flat, ultimately. ---------------------------------------------------- C.D.S. Tufts/Museum School, Boston __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 29 20:32:44 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA15574 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA16303 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA07352 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA07345 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:14:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (sirocco.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.12]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id SAA31037 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:13:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from lansend.cc.mcgill.ca (lansend.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.37.4]) by sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA24296 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:21:00 -0500 X-SMTP-Posting-Origin: lansend.cc.mcgill.ca (lansend.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.37.4]) Message-Id: <199710292321.SAA24296@sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> Received: by MicroMailer 3.70 (.Lan.McGill.CA) on Wednesday, 29 October 1997, 18:13:40 EST From: "Aurele Parisien" Organization: McGill-Queen's University Press To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:13:01 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Meaning of beauty Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Aurele Parisien" Status: O Let's be a bit more careful with our interpretations of analogies! Since color is not "in the object" that we see as coloured it cannot be a reasonable interpretation of the proferred analogy to see it as implying that beauty was to be so taken. The shift from colour to sculptural form confuses the matter even more confusing --especially since one of the main distinctions of philosophers such as Locke who worried about this sort of phrase was to explicitly distinguish between the primary qualities, exemplified by shape, and the secondary qualities, exemplified by colour! The blue "radiated" by any particular bit of pigment mixed by the artist is not determined by that that act alone but by what the artist mixes and puts next to it and on the rest of the canvas, and how big that canvas is --all facts obvious to Seurat and Cezanne, let alone Molinary and other op artists. In other words, the author of the second analogy seems to be interpreting their own terms rather simplistically. Even basic perceptual items such as 'shade of blue' seem fairly emergent and the result of overall structure. So perhaps that is the direction to go in for the original 'beauty' property. And then, the blue is perhaps largely 'in the eye of the beholder' and this gets us back to rather traditional view of beauty. It is perfectly plausible that the experience of beauty is the result of genetically encoded mental structures triggered by overall structural visual features of external objects of various types --as with Chomsky's linguistic theories, the set of possibilities, while rigidly circumscribed, would none the less be open ended and allow for infinite creativity. As with language, this would provide a scecies-wide universal property. Aurele Parisien > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:36:45 -0500 (EST) > From: tickly prickly > Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Meaning of beauty > To: nebbiolo@concentric.net > Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu > Reply-to: tickly prickly > In regards to this statement: > > > As for people who have no appreciation of beauty, I have always > > maintained that beauty is there to be seen, even if some people > > are incapable of seeing it. The fact that some people are > > colorblind does not make colors a function of education and > > culture. > > Considering beauty akin to the phenomenon of color is to place > beauty in the object, as if an artist (for example) could work a > sculpture until all of the sudden the sculpture begins to eminate > or radiate degrees of beauty, in the way a painter can mix pigments > until the paints eminate or radiate degrees of blue. I think this > is absurd, especially when one considers the fickle nature of art > appreciation -- if a piece is made that is "truly" beautiful, should > it not be appreciated as such for all time? We all know the > problematics with that question. Let's be a bit more careful with > our analogies and dismissals. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > C.D.S. > Tufts/Museum School, Boston > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Aurele Parisien Editor McGill-Queen's University Press 3430 McTavish Street Montreal, Quebec H3A 1X9 Direct Line: 514-398-5336 MQUP: 514-398-3750 Fax: 514-398-4333 E-mail: AureleP@printing.Lan.mcgill.ca Please visit our website: http://www.mcgill.ca/mqupress/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 29 17:13:46 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA10761 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA23985 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA21493 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:36:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA21480 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:36:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [205.252.116.101]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA13857 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:35:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from sashai.erols.com (rcm-as11s36.erols.com [207.172.63.163]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA27825 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:37:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710291837.NAA27825@smtp1.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: Aesthetics: culture and society - re: Raymond Williams Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:29:51 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" Status: O Carlos writes, > I applaud James Harbeck's 'networking' of the question of Art, Arts, etc. To > think vectorially about something is a fine lesson... the very fact that art operates > on a level that betrays the type of binarism that is Bad and Good, Mass and Fine, > requires the viewer to look not at the piece of art itself, but rather at the margins > that surround that piece of Art. Vector analysis sounds like a great approach, but what vectors can be used. There would have to be point in which vectors related to each in order to gauge whether any other location in the vector field stood in relation. "Bad vs. good art" and "mass vs. fine art" are not binary-- artworks fall within a broad range in each case as well as at opposite ends of their respective spectrums. Neither are they vectors because they do not have clear magnitude and direction; there is not the worst "bad & mass art" at point (0, 0) on the vector and the best "good & fine art" at point (10,10). There is great mass art and lousy fine art as well as vice versa. > ... the almost totally unpopulist intention of Mother and > Child Divided, and the fact that I find the piece breathtaking in a religious > sense, is at least a start on how to think about Art vectorially while trying > to understand the economic and philosophical margins that create Art. Gee, I'd say Mother and Child Divided is very "populist" in intent. Was it not created to engage people that might otherwise ignore art in taking notice? Is it not only populist, but deprecatingly "pop," though not necessarily popular? Where would Mother & Child Divided be located in a vector field? Would its location depend on the experience of the viewer? If a set of vectors would help us appreciate or even understand it similarly, it would be a tremendous shortcut. Your enthusiasm is contagious, Carlos, but I need help to get there from here. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Oct 29 20:00:00 EST 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA02024 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA27435 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:59:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA03166 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:57:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA03153 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:57:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (schools.eastnet.ecu.edu [150.216.8.8]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA11436 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:56:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA401 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:56:36 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:59:05 -0400 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Meaning of beauty Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O Presumably, something is a poison only in relation to the properties of a given set of entities. This does not make being a poison a function of education and culture. If something's being beautiful also is a function of its relation to the properties of a given set of entities (as something's being red also is), this does not mean being beautiful is a function of education and culture. Disagreement over beauty may well be a function of allowing judgments of beauty to be influenced by things having nothing to do with beauty, and with trying to make finer discriminations than is humanly possible between objects that are not all that differrent in their degree of beauty. Agree with it or not, the position that something's being beautiful is just as objective as something's being a poison or being red (or, for that matter being an ice cube, as Putnam points out) is not a non-starter. George Bailey __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 30 05:20:45 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id FAA24589 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA07140 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id DAA00316 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id DAA00309 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id DAA15619 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:33:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:33:33 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4089126@isis.reed.edu> Date: 30 Oct 97 00:33:32 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Aesthetics: Color and beauty To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O What Aurele Parisien is interesting and deserves more consideration than philosophers, at least, usually give such matters. Perhaps though we could not worry about Locke, primary and secondary qualities, etc., and simply ask whether, if in the ordinary way of speaking, some objects are red, and other things (or perhaps some of the same things) beautiful, redness and beauty are analgous insofar as they are both properties of things. (I doubt that they are, and I doubt that 'beauty' is a property of things in any intelligible sense, but that is really neither here nor there.) 'Redness' may or may not be 'in' an object, but I would be baffled if I were told that Altissimo roses were not red: to say this suggests not that the redness is not 'in' this variety of roses, but that they were 'really' pink, e.g., and that one who thought that they were red was mistaken. There has to be some way to predicate simple color terms of ordinary objects without disputes breaking out as to 'where' the color 'really' is. >The blue "radiated" by any particular bit of pigment mixed by the artist is not determined by that that act alone but by what the artist mixes and puts next to it and on the rest of the canvas, and how big that canvas is...< The way 'that blue' is perceived; the work it does in the painting; its relationship to the color (patches) next to it; its 'position' on the field all affect, in ways that are probably impossible to articulate, how we 'see' it. However, none of these has nothing to do with whether a certain wave length of light is reflected from *that* particular place on the canvas. The spectrometer (spectroscope? is unmoved by such considerations. (If I've misunderstood what was meant by 'radiation' in the quoted passage, forgive me.) It also seems clear that although 'beauty' is often predicated of things that move us aesthetically, it's a lazy predication in the sense that a sweeping, 'It's beautiful!' is no substitute for an account of why the thing in question is of interest; why it moves one; what is striking about it; and so on. I think that the reasons for finding something beautiful can be given in a way that the reasons one has for 'finding' (as neutral a term as I can come up with) something yellow can't. (I mean this in Moore's sense, viz., that 'yellow' seems to be, experientially, a unique, indefinable property of things, which defies further analysis at the level of experiece.) The very concept of beauty (or Beauty) seems to be a derivative of a derivative of something whose origins are lost in the mists of Romanticism (or is it Classicism), and I suggest that discussions of art, nature, and aesthetics could only benefit if it were scrapped. All good wishes, Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 30 05:20:32 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id FAA24571 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA12155 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id DAA00652 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id DAA00618 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:38:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id DAA21881 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:37:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:37:37 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4089153@isis.reed.edu> Date: 30 Oct 97 00:37:37 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Color and beauty To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O I wrote, not too long ago: >However, none of these has nothing to do with whether a certain wave length of light is reflected from *that* particular place on the canvas. The spectrometer (spectroscope? is unmoved by such considerations.< Could we make that 'none of these has anything to do with...'? Thanks. Robert Paul __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 30 08:11:30 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id IAA15130 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA32671 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id FAA04655 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id FAA04648 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id FAA00862 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42] (rseamon) by mail.unixg.ubc.ca with smtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0xQruF-0001Cy-00; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:32:51 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:32:50 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: pybailey cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Meaning of beauty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O Yes, to the below, but it makes it very relative to the particular organism. The problem is not that some people cannot be poisoned or beautifulled at all, and some can, and those who cannot are like color-blind people, while the color-perceivers agree that red is red and blue is blue, but it looks like various groups [children, this culture, that culture, this class, that class] are beautifulled by different things. In which case beauty might or might not be culturally determined, but we would still not be able to claim that x was beautiful in the sense that we can say that x is red or poisonous [except in both cases for non-normal folk]. Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, pybailey wrote: > Presumably, something is a poison only in relation to the properties of a > given set of entities. This does not make being a poison a function of > education and culture. If something's being beautiful also is a function of > its relation to the properties of a given set of entities (as something's > being red also is), this does not mean being beautiful is a function of > education and culture. Disagreement over beauty may well be a function of > allowing judgments of beauty to be influenced by things having nothing to > do with beauty, and with trying to make finer discriminations than is > humanly possible between objects that are not all that differrent in their > degree of beauty. Agree with it or not, the position that something's > being beautiful is just as objective as something's being a poison or being > red (or, for that matter being an ice cube, as Putnam points out) is not a > non-starter. George Bailey > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 30 19:04:06 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA06379 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA19805 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:04:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA06381 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:12:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA06374 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:12:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu (0@gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.25]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA29054 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:11:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 208.227.187.75 by gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) id PAA15098; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:11:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3458A4C9.3A24@umich.edu> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:16:22 +0000 From: Jennifer Cerny X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: { brad brace } CC: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Meaning of beauty References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Jennifer Cerny Status: O { brad brace } wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, pybailey wrote: > > > Presumably, something is a poison only in relation to the properties of a > > given set of entities. This does not make being a poison a function of > > education and culture. > > How then, to account for small in-themselves-non-poisonous doses that over > time and in the right circumstances and conjunctions produce the lethal > result? > > > If something's being beautiful also is a function of > > its relation to the properties of a given set of entities (as something's > > being red also is), this does not mean being beautiful is a function of > > education and culture. > > Could it be said that there are socially/culturally determined 'aesthetic > presets,' such as 'beautiful sunsets,' 'this season's fashions' or 'The > Spice Girls,' that can override/supplant the scale (dose) of individual > aesthetic consciousness? We can welcome this release. > > > Disagreement over beauty may well be a function of > > allowing judgments of beauty to be influenced by things having nothing to > > do with beauty, and with trying to make finer discriminations than is > > humanly possible between objects that are not all that differrent in their > > degree of beauty. Agree with it or not, the position that something's > > being beautiful is just as objective as something's being a poison or being > > red (or, for that matter being an ice cube, as Putnam points out) is not a > > non-starter. There is a thought puzzle that I once came across reading some of Donald Davidson's essays on language/intentionality etc. It goes something like this: There is a man who wants to murder another man, who happens to be an astronaut. He decides to kill the man by poisoning the water that will be in the rocket. We assume that eventually the victim drink the water and dies. In the terms of this puzzle, the question becomes, 'when did the murder occur?' Was it when the killer first decided to or developed the intention to perform the murder? Was it when the poison was placed in the reservoir? Or was it when the victim actually drank it and died? If we consider something like this experiment, only apropos beauty, we ultimately get conflicting, yet informative answers. Is it in the artist's intentions that we find beauty, or in the actual creative product, or does the beauty only exist when the work itself is being viewed etc etc. I realize that beauty is a more elusive bird than murder, but maybe we can use the words here to help us out.? __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 30 17:10:06 EST 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA08099 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:10:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA12576 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:10:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA24958 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA24949 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA22895 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02788; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:02:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:02:57 -0800 (PST) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Meaning of beauty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, pybailey wrote: > Presumably, something is a poison only in relation to the properties of a > given set of entities. This does not make being a poison a function of > education and culture. How then, to account for small in-themselves-non-poisonous doses that over time and in the right circumstances and conjunctions produce the lethal result? > If something's being beautiful also is a function of > its relation to the properties of a given set of entities (as something's > being red also is), this does not mean being beautiful is a function of > education and culture. Could it be said that there are socially/culturally determined 'aesthetic presets,' such as 'beautiful sunsets,' 'this season's fashions' or 'The Spice Girls,' that can override/supplant the scale (dose) of individual aesthetic consciousness? We can welcome this release. > Disagreement over beauty may well be a function of > allowing judgments of beauty to be influenced by things having nothing to > do with beauty, and with trying to make finer discriminations than is > humanly possible between objects that are not all that differrent in their > degree of beauty. Agree with it or not, the position that something's > being beautiful is just as objective as something's being a poison or being > red (or, for that matter being an ice cube, as Putnam points out) is not a > non-starter. What is Putnam's ice cube? { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace << > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < >> hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace << >> imagery online ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace << >> all-the-time ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace << Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Oct 30 21:22:02 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA00847 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:22:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA21562 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:22:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA17950 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:23:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA17941 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA11553 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:23:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.18 (srq18.netline.net [205.160.7.18]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA19887 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:13:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3458E029.2AED@netline.net> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:30:27 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: meaning and beauty Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O The recent discussions on meaning of/color and beauty can benefit from the answer to York Gunther’s inquiry from Friday 10/17: >My question, however, is whether aesthetic experience >supervenes upon conscious properties.  Can we have >such an experience and not be conscious of it?  Anyone >have any intuitions here?   The answer is yes, aesthesia can, and does happen without conscious awareness. It is also the case that an experience of appreciating a beautiful object can not be entirely separated from the contextual relativity of the social meaning that we have formed by way of encultration. In other words, when the question is whether aesthesis is either an automatic reaction to universally recognized qualities, or a socially amorphous construct that can hold true for one individual and false for another, the answer, contrary to intuition, is that these two beliefs are not mutually exclusive. Empirical proof (for what it’s worth) of the claim that we, as a species, have built in sensitivities (attraction, etc.) to certain perceptual stimuli has been demonstrated by many cognitive neuroscientists. Their primary tools in this investigation have been advanced brain imaging devices such as PET scanners. What they have discovered is massive neuronic resonance in test subjects when they are confronted with specific patterns and imagery. In a number of cases, there has been evidence that there are areas of the brain that are devoted (hard wired) to the detection and primary inspection of images with specific qualities. Because these reactions are hard wired, they are universally experienced despite the social/cultural background of the individual. An example of this is the way that our attention is captured by objects (or images) that are bilaterally symmetrical. This built in awareness is probably rooted deep in our genetic history. A facing predator has this compositional orientation, as does most of the animal kingdom. Because of this, it is easy to see why any organism without this sensitivity has (or had) one strike against it. It is important to note here however, that these hard wired reactions are always accompanied by, or perhaps stirred in with, the lexically derived (software) social belief systems that make us human. Hence, the simultaneously universal and idiosyncratic characteristics of perception. An example from the animal kingdom (for clarity) is the hard wired attraction to brightly colored objects that exists in many insects and animals. This built in attraction aids in survival by ensuring adept abilities of recognizing essentials such as fruits, berries, and of course... flowers. Bees cannot conceptualize attraction and therefore have no awareness of their own mental happenings while they are experiencing it. Because the process of conceptualizing requires the propositional devices of lexical discourse, the syntactically disparate structure of the visual language keeps us from being fully aware of our own aesthetic perception. Aurele Parisien suggested, if I correctly understood her, that we enjoy a hard wired visual syntax that coexists with the built in, lexically based syntactical structure of Chomskyan linguistics that is employed by the neocortex. She is probably right, and it should be noted that our universally shared perceptual responses are rooted much deeper in our evolutionary history than our culturally acquired, language based responses. One does not necessarily negate the other. It’s important for us to recognize the fact that just because we are not aware of some experiences, it doesn’t mean that we didn’t have them. In fact, in the words of Mark Turner from his book the _The Literary Mind_ pp. 6, “Consciousness is a wonderful instrument for helping us to focus, to make certain kinds of decisions and discriminations, and to create certain kinds of memories, but it is a liar about mind. It shamelessly represents itself as comprehensive and all-governing, when in fact the real work is often done elsewhere, in ways too fast and too smart and too effective for slow, stupid, unreliable consciousness to do more than glimpse, dream of and envy.” GE colorist@netline.net __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 31 00:00:20 EST 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id AAA24648 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:00:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA17757 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA28598 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA28590 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (schools.eastnet.ecu.edu [150.216.8.8]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA06296 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:32:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.201.229.72] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA462 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:31:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Meaning of beauty Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 21:39:22 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19971031023149218.AAA462@[207.201.229.72]> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O The question is at what time was the water poisonous. The answer is, after the poison was added. Whether anyone actually drinks the water and gets poisoned or not is not relevant. And so for beauty. Perhaps the affects of cultural conditioning on the perception of beauty are rather like the affects of an antidote on the taking of poison. They interfere. This does not change the ontological status of the property. - George Bailey __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 31 03:26:50 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id DAA00368 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 03:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA24135 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 03:26:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA08859 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:23:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA08846 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSRGSMTP10 (upimsrgsmtp10.msn.com [207.68.152.54]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA18646 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from upmajb08 - 204.95.110.71 by msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:21:35 -0800 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 06:21:51 UT From: "Carlos Amador" Message-Id: To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: RE: Aesthetics: culture and society - re: Raymond Williams Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Carlos Amador" Status: O ---------- From: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu on behalf of Chris Cochrane Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 10:29 AM To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: culture and society - re: Raymond Williams Carlos writes, > I applaud James Harbeck's 'networking' of the question of Art, Arts, etc. To > think vectorially about something is a fine lesson... the very fact that art operates > on a level that betrays the type of binarism that is Bad and Good, Mass and Fine, > requires the viewer to look not at the piece of art itself, but rather at the margins > that surround that piece of Art. Vector analysis sounds like a great approach, but what vectors can be used. There would have to be point in which vectors related to each in order to gauge whether any other location in the vector field stood in relation. "Bad vs. good art" and "mass vs. fine art" are not binary-- artworks fall within a broad range in each case as well as at opposite ends of their respective spectrums. Neither are they vectors because they do not have clear magnitude and direction; there is not the worst "bad & mass art" at point (0, 0) on the vector and the best "good & fine art" at point (10,10). There is great mass art and lousy fine art as well as vice versa. > ... the almost totally unpopulist intention of Mother and > Child Divided, and the fact that I find the piece breathtaking in a religious > sense, is at least a start on how to think about Art vectorially while trying > to understand the economic and philosophical margins that create Art. Gee, I'd say Mother and Child Divided is very "populist" in intent. Was it not created to engage people that might otherwise ignore art in taking notice? Is it not only populist, but deprecatingly "pop," though not necessarily popular? Where would Mother & Child Divided be located in a vector field? Would its location depend on the experience of the viewer? If a set of vectors would help us appreciate or even understand it similarly, it would be a tremendous shortcut. Your enthusiasm is contagious, Carlos, but I need help to get there from here. Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl Cheers Chris for your fine criticism, perhaps a bit more attenuation was necessary to my words. No excuses but I was a tad incoherent that day. About vectors, you ask the fundamental question. What vectors do we employ when we think vectorially? I think for me a way to think vectorially is perhaps to say it more simply is to analyse the particular work or notion as if it was somehow an aspect of a larger network. Any isolation of any aspect of the network serves to misconstrue at least a part of that object's relationship to the network, or vectors, as if sort of sediments that object or aspect in one location. A distancing from the network serves to elide or at least obscure the idiosyncratic operation of the object in the network. Now about the margins, I think I was totally unclear and it was good of you to point it out. What I was trying to say is that at one level and for many, "Art" is its margins. Basquiat on the subway train is not Basquiat at The Whitney. I meant to say that the spatiality of a work is ultimately not its own device. The viewer, for the identification of "Art", often needs the encapsulation of the museum for the assessment of what is artful to be made. And simultaneously, art betrays those margins, by the power how it operates "aesthetically" for the viewer. So what I mean at least at one point by vectors is this tension that "art" seems to have with what it needs for its existence, and how it challenges and transcends, or undermines its parameters. I hope that's somewhat clearer. Listen, I am philosopher of science trying to jump into this aesthetics field, so I know I sound like a big dork. Thanks, Carlos __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 31 03:28:43 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id DAA00519 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 03:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA01843 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 03:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA08942 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA08929 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:25:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSRGSMTP10 (upimsrgsmtp10.msn.com [207.68.152.54]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA12263 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from upmajb06 - 204.95.110.89 by msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:23:51 -0800 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 06:24:40 UT From: "Carlos Amador" Message-Id: To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: RE: Aesthetics: culture and society - re: Raymond Williams Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Carlos Amador" Status: O By the way Chris, I just read an interview of Damien Hirst. You got me on that one. : ) Mother et al. is much more populist than I had thought. I guess I should have substituted declamatory for populist. Although that is another point of debate. : ) Thanks, Carlos __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 31 12:45:56 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA20537 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA04444 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA26120 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:28:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA26113 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:28:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout03.mail.aol.com (emout03.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.94]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA04593 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:27:24 -0500 (EST) From: Paryser@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA28227 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:26:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:26:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971031092521_1860785545@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: self-referential art Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Paryser@aol.com Status: O I am looking for artists who work in a self-referential format. Specifically, artists who place their image, body imprints or by-products, symbols of personal identification in their work. Traditional self-portraiture is not included. What are the reasons for this choice of expression? Any information would be appreciated. Thank you. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 31 15:00:15 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA08783 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:00:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA05454 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:00:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA03739 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:37:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA03732 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:37:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [205.252.116.102]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA21552 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:37:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from sashai.erols.com (rcm-as8s66.erols.com [207.172.101.58]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA07165 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:36:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710311636.LAA07165@smtp2.erols.com> From: "Chris Cochrane" To: Subject: Re: Aesthetics: culture and society - re: Raymond Williams Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:36:28 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Chris Cochrane" Status: O Hi, Carlos. Thank you for thoughtful private message. You write, RE' thinking in vectors: > ... I think for me a way to think vectorially is perhaps to say > it more simply is to analyse the particular work or notion as if it was > somehow an aspect of a larger network. Any isolation of any aspect of the > network serves to misconstrue at least a part of that object's relationship to > the network, or vectors, as if sort of sediments that object or aspect in one > location. A distancing from the network serves to elide or at least obscure > the idiosyncratic operation of the object in the network. > RE' effect of external forces on art appreciation: > ... So what I mean at least at one point by vectors is this tension > that "art" seems to have with what it needs for its existence, and how it > challenges and transcends, or undermines its parameters. I hope that's > somewhat clearer. Yes, Carlos, I can see I misconstrued your post. I thought of using vectors in order to map where beauty resides in a defined field. You define vectors as forces pulling on the concept of beauty outside of the artwork. Your construction is valid and useful. > Listen, I am philosopher of science trying to jump into this > aesthetics field, so I know I sound like a big dork. I don't think we have the attitude (and perhaps not the knowledge) to be BIG dorks, Carlos. As a subset of two, perhaps we can be the minor dorks... :-) Best wishes, Carlos, Chris... C. Cochrane, mailto:sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 31 17:12:35 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA14414 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:12:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA18423 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:12:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA12566 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA12539 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA31737 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00943; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:49:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:49:02 -0800 (PST) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: meaning and beauty In-Reply-To: <3458E029.2AED@netline.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Glenn English wrote: > The answer is yes, aesthesia can, and does happen without > conscious awareness. It is also the case that an experience of > appreciating a beautiful object can not be entirely separated > from the contextual relativity of the social meaning that we > have formed by way of encultration. In other words, when > the question is whether aesthesis is either an automatic reaction > to universally recognized qualities, or a socially amorphous > construct that can hold true for one individual and false for > another, the answer, contrary to intuition, is that these two > beliefs are not mutually exclusive. > > Empirical proof (for what it’s worth) of the claim that we, as > a species, have built in sensitivities (attraction, etc.) to certain > perceptual stimuli has been demonstrated by many cognitive > neuroscientists. Their primary tools in this investigation have > been advanced brain imaging devices such as PET scanners. > What they have discovered is massive neuronic resonance in > test subjects when they are confronted with specific patterns > and imagery. In a number of cases, there has been evidence > that there are areas of the brain that are devoted (hard wired) > to the detection and primary inspection of images with specific > qualities. Because these reactions are hard wired, they are > universally experienced despite the social/cultural background > of the individual. > > An example of this is the way that our attention is captured > by objects (or images) that are bilaterally symmetrical. This > built in awareness is probably rooted deep in our genetic > history. A facing predator has this compositional orientation, > as does most of the animal kingdom. Because of this, it is easy > to see why any organism without this sensitivity has (or had) > one strike against it. It is important to note here however, that > these hard wired reactions are always accompanied by, or > perhaps stirred in with, the lexically derived (software) social > belief systems that make us human. Hence, the simultaneously > universal and idiosyncratic characteristics of perception. > > An example from the animal kingdom (for clarity) is the hard > wired attraction to brightly colored objects that exists in many > insects and animals. This built in attraction aids in survival by > ensuring adept abilities of recognizing essentials such as fruits, > berries, and of course... flowers. Bees cannot conceptualize > attraction and therefore have no awareness of their own mental > happenings while they are experiencing it. Because the process > of conceptualizing requires the propositional devices of lexical > discourse, the syntactically disparate structure of the visual > language keeps us from being fully aware of our own aesthetic > perception. > > Aurele Parisien suggested, if I correctly understood her, that > we enjoy a hard wired visual syntax that coexists with the > built in, lexically based syntactical structure of Chomskyan > linguistics that is employed by the neocortex. She is probably > right, and it should be noted that our universally shared perceptual > responses are rooted much deeper in our evolutionary history than > our culturally acquired, language based responses. One does not > necessarily negate the other. It’s important for us to recognize the > fact that just because we are not aware of some experiences, it > doesn’t mean that we didn’t have them. > > In fact, in the words of Mark Turner from his book the _The > Literary Mind_ pp. 6, “Consciousness is a wonderful instrument for > helping us to focus, to make certain kinds of decisions and > discriminations, and to create certain kinds of memories, but it is a > liar about mind. It shamelessly represents itself as comprehensive > and all-governing, when in fact the real work is often done elsewhere, > in ways too fast and too smart and too effective for slow, stupid, > unreliable consciousness to do more than glimpse, dream of and > envy.” Your examples of pattern recognition and (hard-wired) attention to bilateral symmetries and attraction to brightly-colored objects, don't seem to be in themselves, aesthetic responses, although they may happen without conscious awareness. { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace << > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < >> hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace << >> imagery online ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace << >> all-the-time ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace << Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 31 17:03:30 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA11301 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA28392 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA13247 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:00:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA13237 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA21020 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:59:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA02979; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:59:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:59:17 -0800 (PST) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Meaning of beauty In-Reply-To: <19971031023149218.AAA462@[207.201.229.72]> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, pybailey wrote: > The question is at what time was the water poisonous. The answer is, > after the poison was added. Whether anyone actually drinks the water and > gets poisoned or not is not relevant. And so for beauty. Perhaps the > affects of cultural conditioning on the perception of beauty are rather > like the affects of an antidote on the taking of poison. They interfere. > This does not change the ontological status of the property. - George > Bailey Again: the water could contain a substance that would produce a poisonous effect _conditionally:_ a certain quantity may need to be consumed at minimal intervals and/or in conjunction with other ingested substances and/or in accordance with a pre-existing medical condition and/or... etc. The "ontology" of the poisoned water is not so clear. As it is, with aesthetics. I'd be interested to hear of an example of an "universal aesthetic." Also, is there anything that could _not_ be deemed under some condition, to impart an aesthetic response? I think not. { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace << > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < >> hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace << >> imagery online ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace << >> all-the-time ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace << Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Oct 31 22:06:56 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id WAA23581 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:06:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA14443 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:06:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA03886 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA03879 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA28656 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:32:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.65 (srq0b.netline.net [205.160.7.65]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA20540 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:22:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <345A4046.7EC5@netline.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:32:17 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: meaning and beauty Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O On Friday, Oct. 31, brad brace commented: > Your examples of pattern recognition and (hard-wired) attention to > bilateral symmetries and attraction to brightly-colored objects, don't > seem to be in themselves, aesthetic responses, although they may happen > without conscious awareness. Perhaps they are not, if by "aesthetic responses" we are referring to academic discussions about beautiful phenomena. On the other hand, if we are referring to those experiences that resist description and are distinguished from practical and moral considerations, those examples are fit. To put it another way, if an "aesthetic response" is the analyzation of a text, the aforementioned examples don't meet the necessary criteria to be defined as such. However, if an "aesthetic response" is an experience of the space between the lines, the examples are appropriate. If an experience of a sunset is an aesthetic one, the "brightly colored objects" example is certainly telling. My position is that we need not posit that either definition precludes the other if we are able to recognize the actuality of both. Now is the first time that logic doesn’t necessitate our choosing one over the other. This freedom is a way off of the merry-go-rounds that have tired out aesthetic reflection. We only need let go of the ponies and step off. The mapping of our hard-wiring has shown us somewhere to explore from here. Granted, the map is still a very rough sketch at this point in time, but it gives us somewhere to start. GE colorist@netline.net __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Nov 2 12:11:58 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA16408 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA10239 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA20175 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA20165 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA29507 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from haris-a (athe-d11.otenet.gr [195.167.120.60]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23951 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:02:45 +0200 (EET) From: "Haris Kambouridis" To: Subject: Aesthetics: request for VISUAL ARTS ARCHIVES--free CD ROM Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:01:27 +0200 Message-ID: <01bce7a0$3258df40$3c78a7c3@haris-a> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BCE7B0.F5E1AF40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Haris Kambouridis" Status: O This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BCE7B0.F5E1AF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Our MODERN GREEK ART ARCHIVES is a large, non-profit, collection of documents (personal documents, exhibition catalogues, publications, = videos, etc) relating to Painting, Sculpture, etc by Greek (or, of Greek origin) artists. We are interested in collecting any relative material or = relative infrormation. For Greek-speaking artlovers we can immediately supply, = free of any charge, our ELECTRONIC PINAKOTHEK, our interactive CD ROM for PC (420 painters, 500 artworks, History, Lexicon, etc) containning almost = all Greek painters of post 1832 era. Please contact us at ssva@otenet.gr, = attn. Prof.Haris Kambouridis.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BCE7B0.F5E1AF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Our MODERN GREEK ART ARCHIVES is a large, non-profit, collection=20 of
documents (personal documents, exhibition catalogues, = publications,=20 videos,
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infrormation. For Greek-speaking artlovers we can = immediately=20 supply, free
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Prof.Haris=20 Kambouridis.
 
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BCE7B0.F5E1AF40-- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Nov 3 05:43:46 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id FAA01399 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:43:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA24790 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id DAA04194 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 03:14:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id DAA04187 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 03:14:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from bgo.cyberspace.com.ph (root@[203.172.7.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA07218 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 03:13:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from netpc.net.com.ph (netpc03.net.com.ph [203.172.7.77]) by bgo.cyberspace.com.ph (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA28686 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:30:39 +0800 (PHT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971103161557.00887860@net.com.ph> X-Sender: cesmyra@net.com.ph X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 16:15:57 +0800 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ces Myra Subject: Aesthetics: Art? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ces Myra Status: O "Magandang Pagbati sa Inyong Lahat." - (Good Day Everyone!) I'm not an artist but I'm interested in art. What is art anyway? How do you know if a painting or a sculpture is art itself or just a mere object? What are the foundations of artworks? How do you know if it's erotic art or just plain pornography? And since art is relative in people's views, then who's telling us which is which? Geez, so many questions... Well I guess for me, art makes man human, don't you think? Ces Myra Mabalot San Fernando, La Union Philippines cesmyra@net.com.ph __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Nov 3 07:56:40 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id HAA17655 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA06254 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:56:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id FAA11861 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:54:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id FAA11854 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:54:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from abyss.netactive.co.za (root@abyss.infonet.co.za [196.27.15.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA20448 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ct2-20.netactive.co.za [196.27.40.20]) by abyss.netactive.co.za (8.8.5/OpenMail) with ESMTP id MAA25420 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:52:43 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199711031052.MAA25420@abyss.netactive.co.za> From: "Mark Wilding" To: Subject: Aesthetics: INFORMATION HELP Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:50:53 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Mark Wilding" Status: RO HI, MY NAME IS HENRIQUE WILDING, I AM A THIRD YEAR PHOTOGRAPHY STUDENT, IN SOUTH AFRICA. I NEED SOME HELP ON INFORMATION. I AM SPECIALISING IN, "AESTHETIC PHOTOGRAPHY". DEALING WITH IT'S AFFECTS ON PEOPLE, MAYBE DIFFERENT PHOTOGRAPERS WHO HAVE A SIMILAR APPROACH TO THERE WORK. ALSO USING THE ASTHETIC QUALITIES OF A PHOTOGRAPH AS A MEANS OF ESCAPISM. IF THIS DESCRIPTION IS INSUFFCIENT, PERHAPS I COULD SCAN AND SEND YOU SOME OF MY PICS. YOUR HELP WILL BE MUCH APPRECIATED ASAP,OR ANYONE ELSE YOU CAN SUGGEST. THANK YOU HENRIQUE E-MAIL ME AT HWILDING@HOTMAIL.COM __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Nov 3 17:50:17 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA09920 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:50:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA29293 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:50:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA16203 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA16187 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id NAA14826 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:43:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971103133951.006e9d38@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 13:39:51 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: "r.f.hendry" (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetics Conference Announcement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id NAA16189 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "r.f.hendry" (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O British Society for Aesthetics (Northern Region Meeting) Friday 14 November Melville Room, Hatfield College, Durham University 11.00 - 12.30 "Sensation and Representation": Dr. John Hyman (The Queen's College, Oxford) Lunch 1.30 - 2.45 "The Concept of Authenticity in Adorno's Aesthetics" Prof. Max Paddison (Department of Music, Durham University) Tea break 3.00 - 4.15 "Objectivity and Evaluation in Aesthetics": Dr. Mark Rowe (York University) Registration fee (including lunch): £10 (£5 students) Cheques payable to "University of Leeds" should be sent by 7 November to: Dr. Andy Hamilton Dept. of Philosophy Durham University Durham DH1 3HP Tel: 0191 374 7647 Fax: 0191 374 7635 Email: A.J.Hamilton@durham.ac.uk Financial support from the British Society for Aesthetics is gratefully acknowledged. Robin Findlay Hendry Department of Philosophy University of Durham 50 Old Elvet Durham DH1 3HN __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 5 18:34:07 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA02180 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:34:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA18979 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:34:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA29275 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA29247 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id OAA07841 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:21:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971105141541.006c6a2c@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 14:15:41 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: JONATHAN REE (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: Art and the senses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: JONATHAN REE (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O "Where theory ends, there art begins" One-day conference on Philosophy, Art and the Senses Saturday 22 November 1997 Middlesex University White Hart Lane London N17 8HR Sylviane Agacinski: "Transformations of Painting" Jonathan Ree: "The five senses" Jacques Ranciere: "What is 'aesthetic'?" Jay Bernstein: "The Horror of non-identity: Cindy Sherman's Modernism" David Batchelor: "On Colour and on Kawara" Other speakers include Howard Caygill and Mandy Merck Conference Fee: 25 pounds waged, 8 pounds unwaged Cheques payable to Middlesex University Send to Jonathan Ree (conference), Middlesex University, White Hart Lane, London N17 8HR Jonathan Ree Middlesex University White Hart Lane London N17 8HR Telephone: 0181 362 5551 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 5 18:42:16 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA06952 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA22383 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:42:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA01293 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA29355 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:24:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from hermes (hermes.uninet.net.mx [200.33.146.193]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id OAA05946 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:23:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from hermes.uninet.net.mx by hermes (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA06662; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:25:24 -0600 Message-Id: <199711051925.NAA06662@hermes> From: "Blanca Fortoul" To: Subject: Aesthetics: Hi Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:22:46 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Blanca Fortoul" Status: O Hello: I´m taking a degree in aesthetics and I'm having some problems with authors like Hartman and Tomás de Aquino. And what would be the best definition af a Critic? Cheers. Blanca __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 5 20:37:15 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA04277 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA15076 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA08579 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA08561 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id RAA14793 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:35:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971105173205.007360d0@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:32:05 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Eldridge (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetics Society--1998 Call for Paers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Eldridge (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O The American Society for Aesthetics an association for aesthetics, criticism, and theory of the arts 56th Annual Meeting Bloomington, Indiana November 4-7, 1998 Call for Papers In addition to considering papers in any area of aesthetics,the Program Committee particularly invites submissions falling under the following headings: The New Musicology; Aesthetics Before the 17th Century; Political Criticism; Contemporary Art Strategies and Theory; Taste and Character; Romanticism and its Theories; Cultural Studies and Aesthetics; Principles of Film Theory; Aesthetic Unity/Aesthetic Provocation Some Funds are available to subsidize the participation of graduate students and of scholars from economically disadvantaged countries. Papers, in triplicate, should be submitted together with a 100-word abstract and formatted for blind reviewing (author's name on separate cover page only). Papers should not exceed 12 pages (20-25 minutes reading time). Abstracts cannot be considered in lieu of papers. Send Submissions to: Professor Richard Eldridge ASA Program Chair Department of Philosophy Swarthmore College Swarthmore, PA 19081 DEADLINE: MARCH 1, 1998 Program Committee: Stanley Bates, Claire Detels, Richard Eldridge, Michael Fischer, Jennifer Judkins, Rene Lorraine, Darrell Moore, Curtis Carter (ex officio) __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Nov 6 05:05:49 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id FAA29063 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:05:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA32288 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id CAA24763 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:59:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id CAA24756 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp (sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp [133.33.105.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id CAA05164 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:58:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamapc07.sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp ([133.33.106.107]) by sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp (8.6.9+2.4W/3.3W9) with SMTP id QAA22145 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:46:04 +0900 Message-Id: <199711060746.QAA22145@sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Steven J. Willett" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:55:15 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: Perception of rhythm Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Steven J. Willett" Status: O A question for the cognitive scientists on the list. In _Rhythmic Phrasing in English Verse_ and subsequent publications, Rich Cureton has argued for a complex hierarchical perception of rhythm based on the analogy of Schenkerian music theory. Is there any evidence from cognitive science about how perceptible these high-level phrase organizations may be? As we read poetry, we are aware of the fluctuating rhythms on a line-by-line basis just as we're aware of various phrase groupings. But is there any empirical evidence for perception of ever higher levels of phrase integration? In Schenker's theory, we have some evidence to support his vertical tonal hierarchy, though it has come into some rigorous criticism from musicologists like Bengt Edlund and Eytan Agmon. Europe has been far more resistant to the theory than the US, where Schenkerism is sometimes argued, as Per F. Broman noted recently, like a compulsory orthodoxy. The problem reduces to this: in a linear stream of poetic text, how far up can we actually perceive more and more abstract groupings? Citations would be welcome. Thanks in advance. ======================================== Steven J. Willett University of Shizuoka, Hamamatsu Campus 2-3, Nunohashi 3-chome Hamamatsu, Japan 432 Office: (53) 457-4514 Fax: (53) 457-4555 Japan email: steven@u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp US email: sjwillett@earthlink.net ======================================== __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Nov 6 17:32:46 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA03104 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA31993 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:32:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA10882 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:46:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA10875 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from MicroLink.com.br (Icarai.microlink.com.br [200.239.245.33]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA31059 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from Nicty03.microlink.com.br (Nicty03.microlink.com.br [200.239.245.43]) by MicroLink.com.br (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA31870 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:43:53 -0200 Message-ID: <3462AAC8.121E@microlink.com.br> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 21:44:41 -0800 From: Rui Erthal X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Kant Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Rui Erthal Status: O Dear friends of Aesthetic On-Line, I am a brazilian student of Journalism and I need some material of Kant's thoughts and studies of aesthetic for an important academic labour. If you can, please, send me an e-mail with home-pages containing those informations. Thanks, Júlio César Erthal - Universidade Federal Fluminense (erthal@microlink.com.br) __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Nov 7 11:30:33 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id LAA09632 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:30:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA19479 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:30:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id IAA22282 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id IAA22268 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ALBA9INT (Alba8Int.cat.es [194.179.86.51]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA25975 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:20:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from default - 195.53.41.253 by abonados.cplus.es with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:20:27 +0100 From: "Mateu Cabot" To: Subject: Aesthetics: E-Text Baumgarten Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:25:24 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCEB88.FCE0C5C0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <08b9727201307b7ALBA9INT@abonados.cplus.es> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Mateu Cabot" Status: O Aquest és un missatge que té moltes parts en format MIME. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCEB88.FCE0C5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I need an E-Text: Alexander G. Baumgarten Meditationes philosophicae de nonullis et poerma pertinentibus If you can, please, send me an e-mail with the page containing these E-Text. Thanks, ------=_NextPart_000_01BCEB88.FCE0C5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I need an = E-Text:
Alexander G. Baumgarten
Meditationes = philosophicae de nonullis et poerma pertinentibus
If you can, = please, send me an e-mail with the page containing these = E-Text.
Thanks,

------=_NextPart_000_01BCEB88.FCE0C5C0-- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Nov 8 12:05:53 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA06955 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:05:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA05321 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA00632 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:19:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA00624 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA08150 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:18:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from serialB19.innotts.co.uk (serialB19.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.90]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA11287 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:18:06 GMT Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:18:06 GMT Message-Id: <199711081518.PAA11287@carlton.innotts.co.uk> X-Sender: woodfra@mailhost.innotts.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Woodfield Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Woodfield Status: O The International Association of Aesthetics is looking for a new editor for its Newsletter. For information concerning the practicalities of running the newsletter, please contact Ales Erjavec at . Anyone then wanting to volunteer for the job should then contact Richard Woodfield at . __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Nov 9 19:49:56 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA08315 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA13008 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:49:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA00517 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA00510 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:39:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ALBA9INT (Alba8Int.Cat.es [194.179.86.51]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA06937 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from default - 195.53.44.49 by abonados.cplus.es with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:38:36 +0100 From: "MCabot" To: Subject: Aesthetics: An Aesthetic text Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:43:40 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCED69.4ECC6BA0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <0cf1e36382209b7ALBA9INT@abonados.cplus.es> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "MCabot" Status: O Aquest és un missatge que té moltes parts en format MIME. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCED69.4ECC6BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, I repeat the message. I need an E-Text: Alexander G. Baumgarten (1714-1762) "Meditationes philosophicae de nonullis et poema pertinentibus" (1765) If you can, please, send me an e-mail with the page containing these E-Text. Thanks, Dr.M.Cabot (t050968603@abonados.cplus.es) ------=_NextPart_000_01BCED69.4ECC6BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry, I repeat the = message.
I need an E-Text:
Alexander G. = Baumgarten (1714-1762)
"Meditationes philosophicae de = nonullis et poema pertinentibus" (1765)
If you can, = please, send me an e-mail with the page containing these = E-Text.
Thanks,

Dr.M.Cabot = (t050968603@abonados.cplus.es)

------=_NextPart_000_01BCED69.4ECC6BA0-- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Nov 9 20:37:56 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA26254 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA25510 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA02715 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:10:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA02708 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:10:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin83.mail.aol.com (mrin83.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.193]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA22452 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:09:29 -0500 (EST) From: Paryser@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin83.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA28317 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:08:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:08:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971109190812_1895578125@mrin83.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: playing cards Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Paryser@aol.com Status: O Researching artists who incorporate playing cards in their work. I would appreciate any information. Also, what are the symbolic references for the Queen of Spades? Many thanks. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Nov 10 02:56:59 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id CAA21418 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA29311 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA11621 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:18:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA11605 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:18:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from darius.concentric.net (root@darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA21355 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:17:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.7/(97/09/12 5.7)) id BAA07757; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:17:53 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] From: Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts001d05.stl-mo.concentric.net [206.83.85.17]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.7) id BAA09368; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:17:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711100617.BAA09368@mcfeely.concentric.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:16:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: More beauty (or Beauty) Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Status: O Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu writes: >It also seems clear that although 'beauty' is often predicated of >things that move us aesthetically, it's a lazy predication in the >sense that a sweeping, 'It's beautiful!' is no substitute for an >account of why the thing in question is of interest; why it moves >one; what is striking about it; and so on. Though I agree that "beauty" can sometimes be a lazy predication, I believe that at other times it is a necessary one. Sometimes it is exactly "beauty" that moves us, "beauty" that makes "the thing in question" of interest. >I think that the reasons >for finding something beautiful can be given in a way that the >reasons one has for 'finding' (as neutral a term as I can come up >with) something yellow can't. (I mean this in Moore's sense, viz., >that 'yellow' seems to be, experientially, a unique, indefinable >property of things, which defies further analysis at the level of >experiece.) Again, I am in partial agreement. To some extent, we can point out specific aspects of a thing which seem to contribute to that thing's being beautiful. On the other hand, "beauty" seems also to be to some extent irreducible. >The very concept of beauty (or Beauty) seems to be a derivative of a >derivative of something whose origins are lost in the mists of >Romanticism (or is it Classicism), and I suggest that discussions of >art, nature, and aesthetics could only benefit if it were scrapped. However problematic it may be, I don't think beauty (or Beauty) can possibly be scrapped. The desire to do so reminds me of the desire of some to wish away the reality of consciousness, because to take it into account complicates things. However difficult it may be to define just what beauty is, or to say precisely why object A is beautiful and object B is not, the experience of beauty is too powerful and too pervasive, I believe, to be ignored. Like it or not, I think that aesthetics must always take beauty into account. Best wishes always, Peter Theodore ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Theodore Say what you like, but such things do happen -- not often, but they do happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Nov 9 20:40:50 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA27300 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:40:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA13238 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA03253 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:37:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA03246 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA09009 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EJE00201N1IOW@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:36:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 19:36:54 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: playing cards In-reply-to: <971109190812_1895578125@mrin83.mail.aol.com> To: Paryser@aol.com Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O I can't remember who the Queen of Spades is supposed to represent--I could look that up somewhere--but she's the equivalent of the Queen of Swords in the Tarot deck, and I could tell you about that card's significance--or direct you to a few sources--if you are interested. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Nov 9 22:22:54 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id WAA05712 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA25039 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA05118 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:54:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA05111 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA32726 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:53:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (ip249.york.pa.pub-ip.psi.net [38.14.87.249]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA20588; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:53:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:53:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19971109215317.45df23ec@pop.pipeline.com> X-Sender: mindstorm@pop.pipeline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Paryser@aol.com From: Crispin Sartwell Subject: Re: Aesthetics: playing cards Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Crispin Sartwell Status: O At 07:08 PM 11/9/97 -0500, Paryser@aol.com wrote: >Researching artists who incorporate playing cards in their work. I would >appreciate any information. Also, what are the symbolic references for the >Queen of Spades? >Many thanks. > > > > there was a pretty cool photo of cards in the air by sarah charlesworth that a lot of us saw at site santa fe. in hearts, the queen of spades is the worst card: affectionately known as the bitch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Nov 10 10:57:39 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id KAA28822 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:57:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA29852 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:57:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA19585 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:09:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA19575 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:09:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from vianet.on.ca (root@icewall.vianet.on.ca [209.91.128.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA30910 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from nor-annex-port5.vianet.on.ca (nor-annex-port5.vianet.on.ca [204.187.89.105]) by vianet.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA08916 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:07:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:07:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711101407.JAA08916@vianet.on.ca> X-Sender: elzingad@mail.vianet.on.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: elzingad@vianet.on.ca (Daniel Elzinga) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: playing cards Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: elzingad@vianet.on.ca (Daniel Elzinga) Status: O Perhaps you might give us the URL for this site, I am interested in what this card might look like so that I may have an opinion too. Take care, Dan >At 07:08 PM 11/9/97 -0500, Paryser@aol.com wrote: >>Researching artists who incorporate playing cards in their work. I would >>appreciate any information. Also, what are the symbolic references for the >>Queen of Spades? >>Many thanks. >> >> >> >> > >there was a pretty cool photo of cards in the air by sarah charlesworth that >a lot of us saw at site santa fe. in hearts, the queen of spades is the >worst card: affectionately known as the bitch. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>__________________________________________________________ >>Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >>To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >>List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >>Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl >> > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. > >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > > ==================================== Dan Elzinga -- elzingad@vianet.on.ca DEKS MULTIMDEIA personal http://tnt.vianet.on.ca/pages/elzingad/ ==================================== __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Nov 10 18:07:12 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA08341 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:07:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA12862 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:07:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA09112 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA09101 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:30:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from DAFFY.CC.DENISON.EDU (daffy.cc.denison.edu [140.141.2.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA18449 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:29:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [140.141.12.60] (411c.knapp.denison.edu) by cc.denison.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #23983) with SMTP id <01IPULE6SE8S000U8S@cc.denison.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:27:45 EST Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:29:39 +0100 From: goldblatt@cc.denison.edu (David Goldblatt) Subject: Aesthetics: playing cards To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: goldblatt@cc.denison.edu (David Goldblatt) Status: O Audrey Flack uses playing cards in several of her super-realist paintings and Bob Dylan has lots of references in his songs. People play cards in Max Beckmann paintings and the architect Peter Eisenman has a book called, HOUSES OF CARDS. And so forth. David Goldblatt __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Nov 10 11:23:53 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id LAA17179 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:23:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA24563 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:23:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA21765 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA21746 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from UMBC2.UMBC.EDU (umbc2.umbc.edu [130.85.1.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA13762 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:49:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from UMBC2.UMBC.EDU by UMBC2.UMBC.EDU (PMDF V5.0-6 #1) id <01IPU9L1SNN400657A@UMBC2.UMBC.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:49:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:49:39 -0500 (EST) From: "J.M.TITCHENER, FA 541, x3995" Subject: Aesthetics: Queen of Spades To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J.M.TITCHENER, FA 541, x3995" Status: O Sorry, I erased the original. Consider the role played by this card in the game of Hearts. If fading memory serves there is a Pushkin story called the Queen of Hearts. I cannot verify this now but someone will know? J.M. Titchener UMBC Titchene@umbc2.umbc.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Nov 10 11:29:55 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id LAA21201 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:29:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA21126 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:29:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA22476 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA22469 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from UMBC2.UMBC.EDU (umbc2.umbc.edu [130.85.1.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA19104 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from UMBC2.UMBC.EDU by UMBC2.UMBC.EDU (PMDF V5.0-6 #1) id <01IPUA2C88YW0066LU@UMBC2.UMBC.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:02:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:02:49 -0500 (EST) From: "J.M.TITCHENER, FA 541, x3995" Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Queen of Spades In-reply-to: To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J.M.TITCHENER, FA 541, x3995" Status: O Please read "Spades" for "Hearts" in the Pushkin line. JMT On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, J.M.TITCHENER, FA 541, x3995 wrote: > Sorry, I erased the original. > > Consider the role played by this card in the game of Hearts. If fading > memory serves there is a Pushkin story called the Queen of Hearts. I > cannot verify this now but someone will know? > > J.M. Titchener > UMBC > Titchene@umbc2.umbc.edu > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Nov 11 00:25:09 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id AAA13239 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA03023 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA24173 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:03:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA24164 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA18283 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EJG00501OGI14@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:02:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:02:42 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: playing cards In-reply-to: To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, David Goldblatt wrote: > Audrey Flack uses playing cards in several of her super-realist paintings > and Bob Dylan has lots of references in his songs. People play cards in > Max Beckmann paintings and the architect Peter Eisenman has a book called, > HOUSES OF CARDS. And so forth. Sure, and Kim Carnes' circa 1980 "All in the Draw of the Cards," and the album cover of Blue Oyster Cult's _Agents of Fortune_, and probably more than one Kenny Rogers song . . . Info on the Queen of Swords forthcoming. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Nov 10 21:52:23 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA03022 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA00421 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA19955 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:47:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA19948 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from education.canberra.edu.au (education.canberra.edu.au [137.92.29.8]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA25397 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from by education.canberra.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08950; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:58:59 +1100 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:48:02 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: jennym@education.canberra.edu.au (Jennifer McMahon) Subject: Aesthetics: re:playing cards Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jennym@education.canberra.edu.au (Jennifer McMahon) Status: O >At 07:08 PM 11/9/97 -0500, Paryser@aol.com wrote: >>Researching artists who incorporate playing cards in their work. I would >>appreciate any information. Also, what are the symbolic references for the >>Queen of Spades? >>Many thanks The Australian painter John Brack (Melbourne based and well known here in Australia) painted a series of paintings in which playing cards featured. In some of these paintings, the meticulously painted cards are carefully positioned to represent the soldiers of two armies engaged in battle (he did the same thing with pencils a little later). The National Gallery of Victoria have a catalogue of his works. Also there is a book written by Ronald Millar and published about twenty years ago which features his early work (not the playing card paintings which were painted in the 1980s). Education Faculty University of Canberra PO Box 1 Belconnen, ACT 2616, Australia Ph: work (02) 6 201 2491 Fax: (02) 6 201 5065 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Nov 11 09:23:59 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id JAA20042 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA18429 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:23:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id GAA01766 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id GAA01759 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:48:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk (pat.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id GAA23051 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:47:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6098 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1997 11:46:28 -0000 Received: from midge.bath.ac.uk (HELO bath.ac.uk) (mmdf@138.38.32.34) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1997 11:46:28 -0000 Received: from abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk by midge.bath.ac.uk id aa05517; 11 Nov 97 11:48 GMT Received: by abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <01BCEE97.175BDD20@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk>; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:43:55 -0000 Message-ID: <01BCEE97.175BDD20@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk> From: Andrew Ballantyne To: "aesthetics@indiana.edu" Subject: RE: Aesthetics: Re: Queen of Spades Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:43:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Andrew Ballantyne Status: O Pushkin's story (1834) was turned into an opera by Tchaikovsky. The card is associated with death, in that story at least. ---------- From: J.M.TITCHENER, FA 541, x3995[SMTP:titchene@umbc2.umbc.edu] Sent: 10 November 1997 10:02 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Queen of Spades Please read "Spades" for "Hearts" in the Pushkin line. JMT On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, J.M.TITCHENER, FA 541, x3995 wrote: > Sorry, I erased the original. > > Consider the role played by this card in the game of Hearts. If fading > memory serves there is a Pushkin story called the Queen of Hearts. I > cannot verify this now but someone will know? > > J.M. Titchener > UMBC > Titchene@umbc2.umbc.edu > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asa __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Nov 11 19:46:53 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA27646 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:46:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA32196 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:46:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA29815 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA29807 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:49:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA18486 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.76 (srq16.netline.net [205.160.7.76]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA20440 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:37:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34689A5A.7DAE@netline.net> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:48:48 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Perception of rhythm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O On Thursday, November 6, Steven J. Willet inquired: >A question for the cognitive scientists on the list. > >In _Rhythmic Phrasing in English Verse_ and subsequent publications, >Rich Cureton has argued for a complex hierarchical perception of >rhythm based on the analogy of Schenkerian music theory. Is there >any evidence from cognitive science about how perceptible >these high-level phrase organizations may be? As we read poetry, we >are aware of the fluctuating rhythms on a line-by-line basis just as >we're aware of various phrase groupings. But is there any empirical >evidence for perception of ever higher levels of phrase integration? >In Schenker's theory, we have some evidence to support his vertical >tonal hierarchy, though it has come into some rigorous criticism from >musicologists like Bengt Edlund and Eytan Agmon. Europe has been >far more resistant to the theory than the US, where Schenkerism is >sometimes argued, as Per F. Broman noted recently, like a >compulsory orthodoxy. > >The problem reduces to this: in a linear stream of poetic text, how >far up can we actually perceive more and more abstract groupings? > >Citations would be welcome. > >Thanks in advance. ________________________________________________________ The point where pattern disintegrates into self-referential isolation or asymmetrical chaos depends on cultural training as well as our perceptual/mental facilities. In auditory perception, individual sounds fuse into a holistic stream along a temporal line, if the conditions are right. If individual beats are close enough together, we will hear a singular noise rather than a pattern of sounds. If individual beats are far enough apart, we will be unable to recognize the pattern and perceive each sound as an isolated event. When the conditions are right to form an auditory stream, as is the case with music perception, we start recognizing patterns of the “high-level” organizations such as rhythmic groupings, verses, choruses, movements, etc. The number of “ever higher levels” is infinite, and we have barely begun to look beyond the existing organizational devices of musical traditions. One helpful place to look into might be the work of Dianna Deutsch: http://www.philomel.com/author.html Another is Chris Koenigsberg’s: http://www.pobox.com/~ckk Culturally developed adeptness in this sort of pattern recognition seems evident in the case of Indian classical music. The combinatorial complexity of this tradition isn’t readily apparent to Western listeners. This fact suggests that we can *learn* to recognize and create patterns of greater complexity because we all share the same basic genetic makeup (hard-wiring). Poetic groupings, both Eastern and Western cannot be understood in musical/rhythmic terms alone in a meaningful way. Repetition in lexical meanings and the syntactical structures of languages create patterns that are phenomenologically disparate from those in music, and have an even greater dependence on cultural context and personal idiosyncrasies. It is interesting to take note of the language of the question “in a linear stream of poetic text, how far up can we actually perceive more and more abstract groupings?”. The term “up”, which we associate with auditory and visual perception, implies motion. In this sense, “the linear stream” of poetic text may be equated with the “auditory stream” effect of music appreciation and separated from the narrative and linguistic aspects of the poetic text. Finally, if we define “abstract” in terms of the symbolic as opposed to the concrete, than the limits of “abstract groupings” may ultimately be in the letters or characters themselves. I hope I’ve been of some help. GE __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 12 13:00:17 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA08157 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA00227 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:00:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA23825 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:52:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA23818 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id KAA07924 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:52:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971112104938.0069bd50@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:49:38 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dcm4@tutor.open.ac.uk (Derek Matravers) (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: Philosophy of Music Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dcm4@tutor.open.ac.uk (Derek Matravers) (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O The Aesthetics Group at the Open University are holding a conference on the Philosophy of Music, on April 21st and 22nd 1998, in King's College Hall, Denmark Hill, London. Stephen Davies, Susan Khin-Zaw, Matthew Kieran, Peter Kivy, Jerrold Levinson, Colin Lyas, Derek Matravers, Aaron Ridley, Roger Scruton (tbc) and Robert Sharpe will be presenting papers. For information, including information about student subsidies, contact Derek Matravers, Philosophy Dept., Open University, Walton Hall, Milton Keynes, MK7 6AA (email: d.c.matravers@open.ac.uk). Places are limited. The organisers gratefully acknowledge the financial assistance from The Analysis Committee, The British Society of Aesthetics (tbc), The Mind Association and The Open University. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Nov 13 11:56:50 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id LAA26136 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA06510 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA03870 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:36:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA03863 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from astro.ocis.temple.edu (shusrich@astro.ocis.temple.edu [155.247.166.104]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA02709 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from shusrich@localhost) by astro.ocis.temple.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA12809; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:35:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:35:40 -0500 (EST) From: Richard Shusterman To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Job in Aesthetics/Cultural Studies Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Shusterman Status: O Temple University will be reviewing candidates for a tenure-track appointment in aesthetics and cultural studies, with teaching commencing the fall semester of 1998. The job will be subsequently advertised in more standard format in places like JFP and the MLA joblist. The appointment is planned at the level of Assistant Professor, and will be a joint appointment in the English and Philosophy Depts. Candidates should have solid credentials in both philosophy and literary or cultural criticism. Complete dossiers can be sent to Richard Shusterman, Dept. of Philosophy, Temple University, Philadelphia PA 19122. Minority candidates and women candidates are especially encouraged to apply. As already mentioned, a more "formal" announcement of the position will appear later. This message is to expedite the review process. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 5 18:35:04 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA02747 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:35:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA05446 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:35:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA02499 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA02477 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id PAA20822 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:24:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971105152132.006eb110@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 15:21:32 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: ASA Newsletter deadline Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O The deadline for the next issue of the American Society for Aesthetics Newsletter is upon us. Please send *calls for papers *conference announcements *division and committee reports *letters to the editor *news items *etc. to Dom Lopes or Sarah Worth . __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Nov 18 15:27:40 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA14738 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:27:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA32619 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:27:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA06568 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA06556 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:39:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from sungod.ccs.yorku.ca (EwDUQ8qitoJD17pZYdDHqiw7yAhYZCwt@sungod.ccs.yorku.ca [130.63.236.104]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA27650 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from 130.63.190.214 (mulder06.slip.yorku.ca [130.63.190.214]) by sungod.ccs.yorku.ca (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA24184 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:38:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3471D3C4.52D9@yorku.ca> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:43:32 -0500 From: veronique Tomaszewski X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: leading thinkers X-URL: http://www.indiana.edu/cgi-bin-local/public/transform?/~asanl/www/net/aesthetics-list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: veronique Tomaszewski Status: O Bonjour, Hello everybody! I am Veronique Tomaszewski Ramses. With such a multi-directional background as the one attached to my name (France, Poland, Egypt and Greece being the main ones), guess what: my interest goes for MULTICULTURAL AESTHETICS. As a Ph.D. student in her fifth year, working hard on her Ph.D. dissertation, I am looking for the names of the Japanese, African, Indian (India) leading aestheticians. Who are the (living) leading theorists in these respective traditional aesthetic thoughts? I need this information in order to contact these philosophers and question them about their work. Anyone who could give me a clue in welcomed. In exchange for any relevent information, I will send to those interested a copy of my thesis! Thanks in advance Peace be with you Vero :) veronique Tomaszewski Ramses York University Social and Political Thought Programme __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Nov 18 18:59:35 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA07022 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:59:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA28436 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:59:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA15221 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:51:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA15212 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from labdien.cc.columbia.edu (cu61930@labdien.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.20]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA31904 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:50:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (mm346@localhost) by labdien.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA25780 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:50:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:50:39 -0500 (EST) From: dd To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dd Status: O __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Nov 18 23:55:36 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA23175 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA01691 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:55:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA28138 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA28131 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:42:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA31858 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.216.75.87] (cjm2.phil.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.75.87]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.8.5/8.7.3-ua) with ESMTP id PAA11145 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:41:20 +1300 (NZDT) X-Sender: sjdavies@ccu1.auckland.ac.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:39:28 +1200 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Stephen Davies Subject: Aesthetics: cuisine Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Stephen Davies Status: O Dear ASAers This is a request for help. I have a graduate student who intends to write a mini-dissertation on the aesthetics and ontology of cuisine. Can anyone refer us to any articles by philosophers on food and cuisine, on perishable and consumable art, or that contrast art/creation with food/cooking? We'd be most grateful. Stephen *********************** Stephen Davies, Department of Philosophy, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, NEW ZEALAND. Fax: 64 9 373 7408 Email: sj.davies@auckland.ac.nz *********************** __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 19 12:40:11 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA26267 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:40:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA19532 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:40:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA10805 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:33:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA10792 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id JAA25832 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from faraday.clas.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa01241; 19 Nov 97 9:32 EST Received: (from fem2x@localhost) by faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.6.6) id JAA392964; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:32:56 -0500 From: "Fred E. Maus" Message-Id: <199711191432.JAA392964@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU> Subject: Re: Aesthetics: cuisine To: sj.davies@auckland.ac.nz Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:32:56 -0500 (EST) Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu In-Reply-To: from "Stephen Davies" at Nov 19, 97 03:39:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Fred E. Maus" Status: O > Dear ASAers > > This is a request for help. I have a graduate student who intends to write > a mini-dissertation on the aesthetics and ontology of cuisine. Can anyone > refer us to any articles by philosophers on food and cuisine, on perishable > and consumable art, or that contrast art/creation with food/cooking? We'd > be most grateful. > > Stephen This is not a direct answer, but a strong recommendation for your student's reading: of M. F. K. Fisher's many books, the one that seems most stimulating, provocative, and honest is _The Gastonomical Me_. Fred Maus __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 19 15:12:42 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA19367 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA13663 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:12:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA16373 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA16360 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:54:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (sirocco.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.12]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id LAA32225 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from lansend.cc.mcgill.ca (lansend.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.37.4]) by sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA06567; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:01:28 -0500 X-SMTP-Posting-Origin: lansend.cc.mcgill.ca (lansend.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.37.4]) Message-Id: <199711191701.MAA06567@sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> Received: by MicroMailer 3.71 (.Lan.McGill.CA) on Wednesday, 19 November 1997, 11:53:32 EST From: "Aurele Parisien" Organization: McGill University To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:51:30 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: cuisine CC: sj.davies@auckland.ac.nz Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Aurele Parisien" Status: O On the food writer side one must not forget Brillat-Savarin's late 18th century classic La Physiologie du gout (one of the english translations, The Physiology of Taste: Meditations on Transcendental Gastronomy, was superbly executed by M. K. F. Fisher). Brillat-Savarin takes the aesthetics of cuisine as THE model for everything and approaches it in the systematic, encyclopedic fashion of an 18th century Frenchman. Completely insane, but most magnificent. Aurele Parisien > From: "Fred E. Maus" > Subject: Re: Aesthetics: cuisine > To: sj.davies@auckland.ac.nz > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:32:56 -0500 (EST) > Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu > Reply-to: "Fred E. Maus" > > Dear ASAers > > > > This is a request for help. I have a graduate student who intends to write > > a mini-dissertation on the aesthetics and ontology of cuisine. Can anyone > > refer us to any articles by philosophers on food and cuisine, on perishable > > and consumable art, or that contrast art/creation with food/cooking? We'd > > be most grateful. > > > > Stephen > > This is not a direct answer, but a strong recommendation for > your student's reading: of M. F. K. Fisher's many books, the > one that seems most stimulating, provocative, and honest is > _The Gastonomical Me_. > > Fred Maus > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Aurele Parisien Editor McGill-Queen's University Press 3430 McTavish Street Montreal, Quebec H3A 1X9 Direct Line: 514-398-5336 MQUP: 514-398-3750 Fax: 514-398-4333 E-mail: AureleP@printing.Lan.mcgill.ca Please visit our website: http://www.mcgill.ca/mqupress/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 19 15:40:11 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA09640 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:40:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA10305 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA16471 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:55:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA16365 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (sirocco.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.12]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id LAA11895 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:54:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from lansend.cc.mcgill.ca (lansend.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.37.4]) by sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA06585 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:01:29 -0500 X-SMTP-Posting-Origin: lansend.cc.mcgill.ca (lansend.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.37.4]) Message-Id: <199711191701.MAA06585@sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> Received: by MicroMailer 3.71 (.Lan.McGill.CA) on Wednesday, 19 November 1997, 11:53:32 EST From: "Aurele Parisien" Organization: McGill University To: aesthetics@INDIANA.EDU Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:52:29 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: cuisine Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-aesthetics@INDIANA.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Aurele Parisien" Status: O ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Self To: sj.davies@auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: Aesthetics: cuisine Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:30:03 EST There is a wonderful little article by Peter Collins comparing the aesthetics and criticism of architecture with that of gastronomy. Aurele Parisien > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:39:28 +1200 > To: aesthetics@indiana.edu > From: Stephen Davies > Subject: Aesthetics: cuisine > Reply-to: Stephen Davies > Dear ASAers > > This is a request for help. I have a graduate student who intends to write > a mini-dissertation on the aesthetics and ontology of cuisine. Can anyone > refer us to any articles by philosophers on food and cuisine, on perishable > and consumable art, or that contrast art/creation with food/cooking? We'd > be most grateful. > > Stephen > > *********************** > > Stephen Davies, > Department of Philosophy, > University of Auckland, > Private Bag 92019, > Auckland, > NEW ZEALAND. > Fax: 64 9 373 7408 > Email: sj.davies@auckland.ac.nz > > *********************** > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Aurele Parisien Editor McGill-Queen's University Press 3430 McTavish Street Montreal, Quebec H3A 1X9 Direct Line: 514-398-5336 MQUP: 514-398-3750 Fax: 514-398-4333 E-mail: AureleP@printing.Lan.mcgill.ca Please visit our website: http://www.mcgill.ca/mqupress/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Nov 20 16:30:51 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id QAA13899 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA24838 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA01689 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:24:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA01677 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id NAA21651 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:24:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #13) id ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:24:03 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4279208@isis.reed.edu> Date: 20 Nov 97 10:24:02 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Aesthetics: taste To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O howdy (I wore my western jacket to st fe): a nuts and bolts question from a relative beginner in this field: I'm putting together reading for "the age of taste", with an eye to (of course) shaftesbury, hutcheson, and hume. It would help me if i could take a look at a number of good anthologies, to pick my predecessors' brains. I"d be glad to hear from those interested in lit history-criticism (too). Could you-all kndly suggest some books? bill peck reed c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Nov 21 16:33:30 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id QAA11849 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA23014 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA11934 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA11922 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk (qmailr@pat.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id NAA09320 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 28118 invoked from network); 21 Nov 1997 09:06:03 -0000 Received: from mary.bath.ac.uk (HELO bath.ac.uk) (mmdf@138.38.32.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 21 Nov 1997 09:06:03 -0000 Received: from abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk by mary.bath.ac.uk id aa29413; 21 Nov 97 9:07 GMT Received: by abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <01BCF65C.3FB3BFA0@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk>; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:02:52 -0000 Message-ID: <01BCF65C.3FB3BFA0@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk> From: Andrew Ballantyne To: "aesthetics@indiana.edu" Subject: RE: Aesthetics: cuisine Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:02:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Andrew Ballantyne Status: O You'll find Peter Collins's essay in his book Changing Ideals in Modern Architecture 1750-1950 (1965, last reprinted 1971) pp. 167-172 ---------- From: Aurele Parisien[SMTP:aurelep@printing.lan.mcgill.ca] Sent: 19 November 1997 16:52 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: cuisine ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Self To: sj.davies@auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: Aesthetics: cuisine Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:30:03 EST There is a wonderful little article by Peter Collins comparing the aesthetics and criticism of architecture with that of gastronomy. Aurele Parisien > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:39:28 +1200 > To: aesthetics@indiana.edu > From: Stephen Davies > Subject: Aesthetics: cuisine > Reply-to: Stephen Davies > Dear ASAers > > This is a request for help. I have a graduate student who intends to write > a mini-dissertation on the aesthetics and ontology of cuisine. Can anyone > refer us to any articles by philosophers on food and cuisine, on perishable > and consumable art, or that contrast art/creation with food/cooking? We'd > be most grateful. > > Stephen > > *********************** > > Stephen Davies, > Department of Philosophy, > University of Auckland, > Private Bag 92019, > Auckland, > NEW ZEALAND. > Fax: 64 9 373 7408 > Email: sj.davies@auckland.ac.nz > > *********************** > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Aurele Parisien Editor McGill-Queen's University Press 3430 McTavish Street Montreal, Quebec H3A 1X9 Direct Line: 514-398-5336 MQUP: 514-398-3750 Fax: 514-398-4333 E-mail: AureleP@printing.Lan.mcgill.ca Please visit our website: http://www.mcgill.ca/mqupress/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asa __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Nov 21 10:05:20 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id KAA12695 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA09448 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:05:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id HAA28517 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id HAA28510 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:26:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from topaz.hknet.com (topaz.hknet.com [202.67.240.226]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA05237 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [202.67.252.37] (mp1638.hknet.com [202.67.252.37]) by topaz.hknet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA02086 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:27:36 +0800 (HKT) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:27:36 +0800 (HKT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: tszkwongl@hknet.com (Leung Tsz Kwong) Subject: Aesthetics: test Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tszkwongl@hknet.com (Leung Tsz Kwong) Status: O this is a test only. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Nov 21 23:59:46 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA28336 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA10457 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA25994 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA25987 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin58.mail.aol.com (mrin58.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.168]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA22089; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:20:16 -0500 (EST) From: GJLEONARD@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin58.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA03311; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:19:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:19:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971121211859_1182069020@mrin58.mail.aol.com> To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU, owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: taste Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: GJLEONARD@aol.com Status: O Dear Bill, For a change, be sure to include a real good dose of Archibald Alison. He's the transition to Wordsworth and Coleridge, who studied him, and profited much. He's good reading, too. Dickie and company always talk about how he's the underestimated figure in it all. He's "transitional" in the way that Gainsborough could have been Constable but chickened out, preferring to "shake hands with Nature with his gloves on." Alison's logic led him towards a place that he, personally, was unprepared to enjoy; and he turned back. Best, George Leonard Prof. of Interdis Hum SFSU __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Nov 22 21:51:43 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA05721 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:51:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA11042 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:51:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA17445 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:59:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA17438 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from wg.pu.ru (wg.pu.ru [193.124.85.195]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA04853 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:59:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mu1451.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by wg.pu.ru (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id KAA26752; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:54:54 GMT Received: by mu1451.spb.edu (UUPC/@ v6.20, 03Nov96) id AA24645; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:52:23 +0300 (MSK) To: tomaszev@yorku.ca Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu References: <3476002B.4B7B@yorku.ca> Message-Id: Organization: 1015 From: "Mikhail S. Uvarov" Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 13:52:23 +0300 X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v1.36H] Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Russian aesthetics Lines: 45 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Mikhail S. Uvarov" Status: O > Hello Prof. Uvarov, > > Thank you very much for your reply to my quest about leading > aestheticians. > I know very little about Russian aestheticians. I read on Soviet > aesthetics and because it is mainly marxist and defending a materialist > approach, it is beside my topic (autonomy of the aesthetic experience; > false dichotomy subject/object). > Now, there are probably other Russian aestheticians whose work is more > philosophical. I would like to know about them. > > A good friend of mine goes every year to St-Petersburg and I saw lots of > pictures of this beautiful city! You are lucky to be surrounded by such > a nice architecture. Here, in Canada, what I lack the most is European > architecture (I am originately from France.) > > Regards, > Vero :) > York University, SPT, tomaszev@yorku.ca > Dear Veronique, There are some aesthetic school in contemporary Russia. There are nonmarxist or antimarxist. The most names of aestheticians of this poin of view are M.Bakhtin, A.Losev (in his earliest books), V.Bitchkov, A.Anriauskas (he lives in Lathuia now), S.Averintzev and others. In St. Petersburg and in Miscow groops of nonclassical and postmodermity aesthetcs are very active now. In May, 1998, we plan to conduct the International Conference on Metaphysics of Art in St. Petersburg University. Best regards, --- Prof. Mikhail Uvarov Serebristij Blvd. 24-2, Apt.459 St.Petersburg University St.Petersburg Russia RU-197227 Russia e-mail: msuvarov@mu1451.spb.edu tel.: +7(812) 395-1893 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Nov 24 13:01:01 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA25080 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:01:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA15799 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:00:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA22615 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:08:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA22608 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:08:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from postman.csulb.edu (postman.csulb.edu [134.139.1.25]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA29240 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:07:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from jvancamp (port110.alam.prodigy.net [204.237.176.110]) by postman.csulb.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA27002 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:08:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971124070554.0068cdd0@popmail.csulb.edu> X-Sender: jvancamp@popmail.csulb.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:05:54 -0800 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: "Julie C. Van Camp" Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetics course on the Internet: spring 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Julie C. Van Camp" Status: O I am pleased to announce that I am teaching a course on Philosophy of Art (aesthetics) entirely on the Internet in spring 1998. This is a junior level General Education course with no pre-requisites. It may also be taken for graduate credit. The class home page is now available: http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/361/ Although designed primarily for matriculated students at CSU Long Beach, we welcome enrollment from other students through our "Open University/University College." The fee for non-CSULB students is $435 for the three-credit semester-long course. Complete information on how to register is available under "registration" on the class page. We cannot guarantee that other institutions will accept these credits toward your degree at another school, but we will be happy to correspond with appropriate officials to assist you in transferring the credits to your own college or university. Some course elements will be restricted to registered students, including weekly e-mail distribution of lecture notes and access to our class on-line discussion group. Other course elements are available to anyone with access to the Internet. Student subscribers to the "Aesthetics" discussion group might be particularly interested in our on-line readings. They include many hyperlinks to other resources on the WWW, so students can see actual examples of the art discussed in the readings. Extensive study questions are also included at the end of each reading assignment, to assist in self-study. I taught a "partially-on-line" version of this course in spring 1997. Although that version included an in-person class meeting once a week, all other course elements were on-line, so we could test them for this spring 1998 experiment taught entirely-on-line. We are confident that this will be a very worthwhile learning experience in aesthetics. Please forward this message to friends who might be interested in taking the course. As this is a first-time experiment for us, I would appreciate hearing from people via e-mail if they expect to register, so we can get a sense of the number of students likely to enroll from off-campus. Questions are welcome: jvancamp@csulb.edu ================================ Julie C. Van Camp, Associate Professor of Philosophy California State University, Long Beach 1250 Bellflower Boulevard Long Beach, CA 90840-2408 (562) 985-5545 jvancamp@csulb.edu http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Nov 25 18:08:56 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA12242 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:08:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA14990 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:08:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA19474 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA19462 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from astro.ocis.temple.edu (shusrich@astro.ocis.temple.edu [155.247.166.104]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA04113 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from shusrich@localhost) by astro.ocis.temple.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA10734; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:25:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:25:18 -0500 (EST) From: Richard Shusterman To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Job in Aesthetics/Cultural Studies at Temple U.: Update Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Shusterman Status: O For those interested in the above appointment previously announced on this list, the search committee for this joint appointment hopes to interview promising candidates at the APA meeting in Philadelphia, if time permits. If you are applying for this position, please let us know if you will be attending the APA meeting and where you can be reached by phone before the meeting, in case we are able to schedule formal interviews. Even if you fail to hear from us before the APA meeting, feel free to stop by and talk to us then. Richard Shusterman __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Nov 25 20:28:03 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA05785 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:28:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA26310 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:28:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA25803 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:52:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA25795 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:52:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.missouri.edu (mail.missouri.edu [128.206.2.169]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA22987 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:51:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from station.missouri.edu ([128.206.132.138]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA112728 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:51:21 -0600 Message-ID: <347B6463.3B79@showme.missouri.edu> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:50:59 -0600 From: "c696704@showme.missouri.edu" Organization: MU X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Marcuse On The Web Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "c696704@showme.missouri.edu" Status: O Dear friends, here`s a web page focusing in part on the works of Herbert Marcuse. http://www.missouri.edu/~tapscifk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 26 18:45:30 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA06767 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:45:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA11673 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:45:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA19633 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:44:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA19565 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA14626 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from serialA17.innotts.co.uk (serialA17.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.24]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA03880 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:39:48 GMT Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:39:48 GMT Message-Id: <199711262139.VAA03880@carlton.innotts.co.uk> X-Sender: woodfra@mailhost.innotts.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Woodfield Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetics and the Arts Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Woodfield Status: O PLEASE CIRCULATE THIS TO ANYONE YOU THINK MAY BE INTERESTED. A new series of publications on Aesthetics Richard Woodfield, the former Secretary of the British Society of Aesthetics and now its Honorary Vice President, is the General Editor of a new series of books to be published by G+B Arts International. The series will be aimed at artists, critics, theorists and historians and it will focus on issues of aesthetics pertaining to the various arts and the critical practices surrounding them. Individual volumes will contain a mixture of published and commissioned essays, including professional literature which opens the way to philosophical analysis. The series is intended to supplement the two aesthetics journals, the JAAC and the BJA, by being specifically directed to a nonphilosophical audience interested in philosophical issues. There will be a paperback public/student edition and a hardback library/scholarly edition of each volume, the hardback including a scholarly commentary directed at an academic peer audience along with a supplementary bibliography. The following have indicated their willingness to serve on the Editorial Board: Phil Alperson (Editor of the JAAC), Noel Carroll (University of Wisconsin at Madison), Arthur Danto (New York), Denis Dutton (University of Canterbury, New Zealand), Peter Kivy (Rutgers University), Kathleen Higgins (University of Texas at Austin) and Saul Ostrow (General Editor of Critical Voices). Richard is open to suggestions for volumes. The first he would like to publish would be on Public Art, Architecture, Painting and Television, though many more are in the pipeline. The following is the Editorial Statement for the series, for which Richard bears sole responsibility. AESTHETICS AND THE ARTS Aesthetics and the Arts is conceived as a series of books that intends to clarify the changing practices of the arts while addressing the diverse concerns of practitioners, critics, theorists, and their audiences. This series will be written from within the analytic and phenomenological traditions of aesthetics and will contain previously published essays organised around a particular art form along with commissioned material to engage with emerging ideas. Today the practice of Art has fragmented into a variety of different forms, and the question arises whether the philosophical study of Art actually matches those practices. The time has come for philosophers to recognise the dramatic changes that have occurred within the artworld over the last century. The niche of mimetic painting has been taken by the invention of photography. The invention of film transformed the notion of theater. The structures of television undermined the distinction between theater and the world. The relatively new concept of a gallery was supplanted by land art and taken out into the streets in performance art and happenings. The classical ideal of music was undermined, at one end by the atonalists and at the other by Satie's music for the inattentive audience. The concept of ballet was challenged by the very idea of what it was to dance. The idea of architecture was subverted by the concept of mass housing. Literature was subverted from within by anti-literary work and from without by pulp fiction. And the notion of Art itself was attacked by Marcel Duchamp, John Cage and the various Trash schools of the individual arts. Philosophers now need to address the distinctiveness of the arts in such a way as to engage the interests of practitioners and their audiences who are acutely aware of the coexistence of novel and traditional art forms. The philosophical study of Art has reached a critical juncture. As part of the legacy of the Enlightenment, it has become an area for the analytic inquiry into Art as an abstract and ahistorical concept. The growing popularity of aesthetics within philosophy departments around the world vividly demonstrates a swelling cultural interest in the workings of the imagination. Theodor Adorno and the theorists of the Frankfurt School have discussed the relationships between imagination and sensuous experience at a sociological level and despite their engagement with popular culture they have maintained its traditional separation from Art. This series will, instead, be premised on the view that Art's differing classical forms have already met their historical limits. Aesthetics and the Arts will range beyond the traditional concept of Art and focus on questions that are now attracting attention in newly emergent, as well as in traditional, artistic practices. As T. S. Eliot wrote: "The existing monuments form an ideal order among themselves, which is modified by the new (the really new) work of art among them." ( 'Tradition and the Individual Talent') __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Nov 26 18:45:32 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA06771 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:45:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA10833 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:45:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA19548 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA19541 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from thing.net (thing.net [209.14.134.3]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id QAA21461 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from 209.14.134.112 by thing.net with SMTP (IPAD 1.14) id 9792800 ; Wed, 26 Nov 97 17:30:05 UTC Message-ID: <347C97A7.5396@thing.net> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:42:01 -0500 From: Lusitania Organization: Lusitania X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: cuisine References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Lusitania Status: O TASTE, NOSTALGIA Edited by Allen S. Weiss Published by Lusitania Press >From the margins of gastronomy to the depths of taste, Lusitania’s 9th Volume, Taste, Nostalgia is a compendium of culinary delights and anguish. Food for body and soul, with rare recipes, lost histories, perfect dishes, childhood nostalgias, limits of taste, historical origins, improbable ecstasies, unusual authors and provocative illustrations. Taste constitutes a sign of individual style, a mode of constituting the self, a mark of social position, an aesthetic gesture. While inaugurating the most intimate pleasures, cuisine simultaneously offers an incontrovertible cultural façade; these pleasures and façades are founded and articulated by childhood nostalgia, eroticism, ethnography, and the virtuality at the core of the culinary imagination—the topics of Taste, Nostalgia. Here, against the solipsism, narcissism and phantasms of what would be the incommunicable idiosyncrasy of pure subjective taste, must be counterbalanced the communality, seduction and mythology of gastronomy. The choice of authors has been balanced between specialists in gastronomy and writers from other disciplines who have been enticed to write on the topic for the first time. In the tradition of M.F.K. Fisher, who taught the crucial role of autobiographical contemplation in gastronomic writing, the contributors to this issue of Lusitania have been chosen for their ability to mix genres, reveal secrets, resolve mysteries and communicate passion—precisely the mix needed to consider the role of food and eating in their complex contemporary relation to the other arts. With essays by: Allen S. Weiss, Jeff Weinstein, Richard Schechner, Chantal Thomas, Terri Kapsalis, Rodolphe el-Khoury, Jean-Claude Bonnet, Lydia Vasquez, Lawrence Schehr, Daniel Spoerri, George Bauer, Clayton Eshleman, Alphonso Lingis, Mushim, Gregory Whitehead, Ron Scapp, Coco Fusco, Jon McKenzie, Alexandra Keller, Eve Jochnowitz. Art by: Lothar Baumgarten, William Pope.L, Coco Fusco & Nao Bustamante, Marcel Broodthaers, Robert Watts, Chrysanne Stathacos & Hunter Reynolds, Perry Bard, Cody Choi, Larry Miller, Julia Jaquette, Gay Outlaw, John Miller, Jean Claude Blanc, Rob Wynne, Marilyn Minter, Daniel Spoerri, Maureen Connor, Rirkrit Taravanija, Jeanne Dunning, Roxy Paine. Taste, Nostalgia ISBN 1-57027-080-5 Distributed by DAP __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Nov 28 14:08:50 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA24304 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:08:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA10297 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:08:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA13225 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:00:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA13212 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:00:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from host.warwick.net (host.warwick.net [204.255.24.254]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA28474 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:59:20 -0500 (EST) From: u1001686@warwick.net Received: from LOCALNAME (m203-12.warwick.net [208.199.20.82]) by host.warwick.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA24223 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:03:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <347F237A.62B7@warwick.net> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:03:06 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: dorothy sayers X-URL: http://www.indiana.edu/cgi-bin-local/public/transform?/~asanl/www/net/aesthetics-list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: u1001686@warwick.net Status: O could someone please locate for me an essay by dorothy sayers entitled,"on a christian aesthetic" I am doing a research paper on a trinitarian approach to art. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Nov 30 17:07:21 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA00591 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:07:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA32422 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:07:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA08140 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA08133 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:47:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA27555 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from serialB03.innotts.co.uk (serialB03.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.68]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08753 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:43:47 GMT Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:43:47 GMT Message-Id: <199711301943.TAA08753@carlton.innotts.co.uk> X-Sender: woodfra@mailhost.innotts.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Woodfield Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetics and the Arts/Contemporary Painting Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Woodfield Status: O CALL FOR PROPOSALS I am looking for proposals for a book on Contemporary Painting within my new series "Aesthetics and the Arts". It would consist of a brief editor's introduction, a selection of ten essays, and a commentary addressed to peer groups in the field. The collection would address the problems of contemporary painting, both from the producer and spectator's standpoint. It would concern itself with philosophical problems concerned with both the activity and its description. The essays could consist of the best art criticism directed at contemporary painting along with philosophical commentaries by other writers, art criticism which raises philosophical issues or philosophical essays informed by a knowledge of the practise of contemporary painting; or a combination of all three categories. It is intended that the book should be aimed at practitioners, critics and theorists of contemporary painting as a primary audience, with professional aestheticians/philosophers as an important secondary audience. The book should also be capable of being read by the art public at large. The book will be published by G+B Arts International and distributed internationally. I am very happy to listen to imagined scenarios for a proposal in the first place. I want to get this off the ground in a short time-scale. Would anyone with contacts on any of the Art email discussion groups please post this call on. Many thanks Richard Woodfield fax: 00 44 115 9486 4093 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Nov 30 17:04:33 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA29844 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA27513 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:04:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA08244 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA08235 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA20254 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from serialB03.innotts.co.uk (serialB03.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.68]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA09232 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:53:21 GMT Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:53:21 GMT Message-Id: <199711301953.TAA09232@carlton.innotts.co.uk> X-Sender: woodfra@mailhost.innotts.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Woodfield Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetics and the Arts/Public Art Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Woodfield Status: O CALL FOR PROPOSALS I am looking for proposals for a book on Public Art* within my new series "Aesthetics and the Arts". It would consist of a brief editor's introduction, a selection of ten essays, and a commentary addressed to peer groups in the field. [*I take Public Art to be art exhibited with public funding and/or art exhibited in the Public domain. I am aware of the potential tensions between the two definitions and would see this also as a profitable area of debate. My own thoughts on the matter were triggered by reading Arthur Danto's essay on Serra's Tilted Arc; but then there is the whole Mapplethorpe/Serrano controversy as well.] The collection would address the problems of Public Art*, both from the producer and spectator's standpoint. It would concern itself with philosophical problems concerned with both the activity and its description/criticism. The essays could consist of the best art criticism directed at Public Art along with philosophical commentaries by other writers, art criticism which raises philosophical issues or philosophical essays informed by a knowledge of the practise of contemporary painting; or a combination of all three categories. It is intended that the book should be aimed at practitioners, critics and theorists of Public Art as a primary audience, with professional aestheticians/philosophers as an important secondary audience. The book should also be capable of being read by the art public at large, which is also part of the primary audience. The book will be published by G+B Arts International and distributed internationally. I am very happy to listen to imagined scenarios for a proposal in the first place. I want to get this off the ground in a short time-scale. Would anyone with contacts on any of the Art email discussion groups please post this call on. Many thanks Richard Woodfield fax: 00 44 115 9486 4093 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Dec 1 17:19:10 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA10778 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:19:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA00621 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:19:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA05538 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA05529 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:37:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id NAA22391 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:36:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971201130638.00698ebc@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 13:06:38 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: cfp Philosophy of Marx Wartofsky Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O Philosophy of Marx Wartofsky October 1998, New School for Social Research, New York Papers are invited for a conference on the philosophy of Marx Wartofsky and on the issues raised in his work, such as historical epsitemology, representation in art and science, the social and political contexts of philosophy, etc. Deadline: May 1, 1998 Carol C. Gould 333 Central Park West, Apt. 16 New York NY 10025 cgould@compuserve.com __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 3 19:07:09 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA26368 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA28385 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA05486 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:54:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA05471 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:53:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from enternet.co.nz (enternet.co.nz [202.49.164.1]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA20803 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [202.49.164.79] (ppp0-13.enternet.co.nz [202.49.164.79]) by enternet.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25197 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:55:27 +1300 (NZDT) X-Sender: naryan@enternet.co.nz (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:51:43 +1300 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Noelene Ryan Subject: Aesthetics: Change of email address Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Noelene Ryan Status: O Dear Aesthetics I have changed my email address and would appreciate continuing to get mail from this group. It is one of the most interesting on the Net. Thanks! Noelene Ryan __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 7 10:58:08 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id KAA02997 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA12798 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id HAA11586 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:53:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id HAA11579 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:53:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from wizard.bsu.edu (bsu.edu [147.226.53.6]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA00732 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from bsu-cs.bsu.edu (root@bsu-cs.bsu.edu [147.226.112.101]) by wizard.bsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA08090 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:54:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from kevinp@localhost) by bsu-cs.bsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01611; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:46:50 -0500 (EST) From: Kevin Message-Id: <199712052046.PAA01611@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> Subject: Aesthetics: order (medium) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:46:50 -0500 (EST) Cc: kevinp@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Kevin) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Kevin Status: O >I think it is not effective when you forget what music's goals are. >John Cage, his contemporaries and many modern composers, >seem to have forgotten what music is supposed to do, >stir our souls -- not our minds (I am not contradicting myself!) >And the result has been a gap between popular music and concert >music that seems unbridgeable. Isn't this begging the question? The whole point of the modernist and post-modern movement in the musical arts was to question the notion that music was necessarily "supposed to" stir our souls. Stirring the soul is not a necessary condition for good music, or indeed of good art. >Experimentation for its own sake is destined to fail. Creativity is logical in hindsight. I >guess things would be better in our musical world if composers had to actually please a >public ... Certainly you are not advocating Tostoy's position that good art appeals to the most people? Through his own position, Tolstoy disqualified most of Beethoven's late works as well as his (Tolstoy's) own literary output as being too elitist, not appealing to the widest possible audience. Pleasing a public is not a condition of good art (necessarily). The public's taste may be wrong. >But if art was expression (as is often thought and said) then every street sign would be art! Expression is a side effect of art. expression can be considered one of a family of conditions, although not a sufficient one in itself, for good art. If a work of craft is expressive, it may or may not be art, depending on other qualities. Every street sign would not necessarily be good art just because it had expressive qualities. I am somewhat perplexed about the dismissal of the beliefs of so many centuries of creative music makers, performers, improvisers, composers, etc., those Olympian figures in the course of history, a majority of whom knew that their explicit goal was to express and communicate. Perhaps several years of music lessons, composition lessons, and the experience of performing and creating music for a live audience, would alter the opinion that music is not expressive and does not communicate. - - Kevin Purrone http://www.cs.bsu.edu/homepages/kevinp/ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 7 00:14:41 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id AAA02095 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA08715 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA03437 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA03430 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:48:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from wg.pu.ru (wg.pu.ru [193.124.85.195]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA17242 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mu1451.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by wg.pu.ru (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id BAA28923; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 01:47:26 GMT Received: by mu1451.spb.edu (UUPC/@ v6.20, 03Nov96) id AA25029; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 04:45:51 +0300 (MSK) To: mistrik@fedu.uniba.sk Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu, heinz@acs.ucalgary.ca, vla3woodfra@ntu.ac.uk, woodfra@innots.co.uk References: <009BDCB6.5143AD20.3@ucitel.fedu.uniba.sk> Message-Id: Organization: 1015 From: "Mikhail S. Uvarov" Date: Sun, 7 Dec 97 04:45:50 +0300 X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v1.36H] Subject: Aesthetics: Metaphysics of Art Lines: 87 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Mikhail S. Uvarov" Status: O >From msuvarov Sun Dec 7 04:40:53 MSK 1997 > Dear Prof. Mikhail Uvarov, > > Can you write more about metaphysics conference, please? The title sounds > interesting... Dear Prof. Eric Mistric Prof. Richard Woodfield Prof. J.W. Heintz and all colleagues, thank you very much for Your interest in our aesthetic project on Metaphysics of Art. Excuse me, please, for my weekly silence. I was absent from St.Petersburg. Now I send You the whole information about conference and about our research: ************************************************************************ The St.Petersburg Branch of the Research Institute for Human Studies of Russian Academy of Science in cooperation with research groups from St.Petersburg University, Ukraine, and USA initiates the project: Perspectives of Metaphysics: Classical and Non-classical Metaphysics at the Break of Century The Project includes the following: 1. Theoretical developments and publication of the materials presented by member groups. 2. International Conference on Metaphysics of Confession, St.Petersburg, May, 1997 (proceedings are published) 3. International Conference on Perspectives of Metaphysics, St.Petersburg, October, 1997 (proceedings are published) ************************************************************************** * 4. International Conference on Metaphysics of Art, * * St.Petersburg, the end of May, 1998. * ************************************************************************** 5. Establishing of St.Petersburg permanent seminar including interdisciplinary workshops and classes on different arts and philosophical topics (1998-99) Main goal of the conference'1998 is to establish new status of the Metaphysics of Art in contemporary cultural context. At the Conference in May, 1998 the following topics will be discussed: * Classical and non-classical images of Art * Metaphysical landscape of culture: fractures, pauses, folds * Life/death as the subject of Art * Russian Art as metaphysical problem * Post-modernism as the problem of classical and non-classical aesthetics * Metaphysics of Thought, Word, Language, Text * Art of metaphysics and metaphysics of Art * Philosophy of contemporary Art (cinema, performances, theatre, painting etc) * Metaphysical aspects of music. All interested people are welcome to participate the Project. Please send your proposals, applications (a free form) and abstracts (up to 6000 char.) and/or full texts (up to 30000 char.) - in English or Russian - until 1 March 1998, in computer form only (standard floppy disk, created in NEditor, Word for Windows 6-7, or via E-mail file in the text format). Contacts: E-mail: art@hb.ras.spb.su; msuvarov@mu1451.spb.edu Voice: Tatiana Artemieva: 7 (812) 514-9380 Mikhail Uvarov 7 (812) 395-1893 Mail: POB 264 St.Petersburg 194358 Russia --- Prof. Mikhail Uvarov Serebristij Blvd. 24-2, Apt.459 St.Petersburg University St.Petersburg Russia RU-197227 Russia e-mail: msuvarov@mu1451.spb.edu tel.: +7(812) 395-1893 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 7 20:20:28 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA13377 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:20:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA29398 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:20:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA23984 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA23977 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id SAA13551 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #13) id ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:26:44 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4404381@isis.reed.edu> Date: 07 Dec 97 15:26:44 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: order (medium) To: kevinp@bsu-cs.bsu.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu Cc: kevinp@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Kevin) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O --- Kevin wrote: I am somewhat perplexed about the dismissal of the beliefs of so many centuries of creative music makers, performers, improvisers, composers, etc., those Olympian figures in the course of history, a majority of whom knew that their explicit goal was to express and communicate. --- end of quote --- it's one thing to "communicate"; it's (more or less) another thing to "express", at least in aesthetics, because of the influence of romanticism and the idea of expressive-creativity, especially where it means expressing oneSELF. In the best known romantic version this does't mean making a statement, at least in the non-slang sense of the word. bill peck reed c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 7 22:34:42 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id WAA03432 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:34:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA28155 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:34:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA28074 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA28067 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from atl1.america.net (ns2.america.net [199.170.121.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA07180 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:03:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from wadowick (pm1-4.p-c-net.net [208.147.137.14]) by atl1.america.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22608 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:02:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:02:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712080202.VAA22608@atl1.america.net> X-Sender: wadowick@p-c-net.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: "James L. Wadowick" Subject: Aesthetics: Expression and communication Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "James L. Wadowick" Status: O Kevin Purrone has debated whether art expresses anything. Yes, it does. It expresses what the artist has discovered, a feeling or idea. On the other hand, art does not communicate anything, that is the job of language, which denotes not connotes things. "Endangered Species" JaMar Music (Jim Wadowick) 215 Glenwood Ave. Troy, AL 36081 334-566-1664 E-mail: wadowick@p-c-net.net __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 7 22:36:38 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id WAA04259 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA13118 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:36:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA28173 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA28154 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from atl1.america.net (ns2.america.net [199.170.121.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA18923 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:05:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from wadowick (pm1-4.p-c-net.net [208.147.137.14]) by atl1.america.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA23384 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:05:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:05:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712080205.VAA23384@atl1.america.net> X-Sender: wadowick@p-c-net.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: "James L. Wadowick" Subject: Aesthetics: Expressing oneself Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "James L. Wadowick" Status: O The more one tries to make artistic creation "self-expression", the less aesthetic is the result. "Endangered Species" JaMar Music (Jim Wadowick) 215 Glenwood Ave. Troy, AL 36081 334-566-1664 E-mail: wadowick@p-c-net.net __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Dec 9 00:43:18 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id AAA18596 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA00725 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA11712 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA11699 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA30955 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:35:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EKW00501HTLID@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:34:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:34:33 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication In-reply-to: <199712080202.VAA22608@atl1.america.net> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O There is a distinct misunderstanding of the nature of communication in the most recent post. Communication is not solely confined to lexicalized denotation. Much communication is entirely connotative, and often enough occurs on a preconscious level. This is how people can just "know" so much about total strangers at a glance, e.g., their socioeconomic status and group affiliations, as well as what mood they are in. Also, language as it is used in almost every instance is not solely denotative; connotation is extremely important in most human verbal communication. As one of the most salient examples, a word such as "fuck" is rarely used for much of any denotative value but large amounts of connotative value. Even the choice of vocabulary and phrasing such as I'm using here has its effect; ya know it'd come across a lot different if I wrote a bit more like this, you know, in a more casual kind of way. Can't say I'm too much of a fan, either, of the assumption in a previous post (Kevin's) that there is some definite kind of thing that is "good art" and some other definite kind of thing that is not. As one of my professors once said, subjectivity is the pons asinorum of aesthetics. It's hard to get anywhere, really, as long as one is ready to hold that, for instance, the majority may be wrong about what's good art, or on the other hand that the majority may be right. There is only person who is right about good and bad art, and that is the percipient, and "good" and "bad" are meaningful only in respect to his/her experience of it. We can speak of what is good and bad as though they were solid entities only because, people being similar, there is a high correlation of tastes among groups of people. This incidentally returns us to an important point in communication: that meaning is also always an approximate match. Communication is, in its simplest and least manipulated form, an act of mutual cooperation and faith between a sender and receiver which intends to result in as close a match as possible between the mental states of the one and the other. My mental picture when I say even something as simple as "red" or "the sun" will not be exactly the same as yours, but they will have a functional equivalence quite suitable for the enablement of useful interaction on the interpersonal level. When I make a work of art, however, there is a framing message which says, "appreciate this aesthetically," and it is at least as important that the receiver be stimulated to a similar level or kind of emotive/aesthetic experience to my own (or to the one which I wish to engender in him or her) as that he or she have some clear denotated concept in mind. This is of course expecially the case in music: we share emotions with it. But that sharing is communication, let us not be mistaken about that. As long as I produce a passage thinking, say, "sad," and someone else hears it and feels sad, something has been communicated. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Dec 9 14:17:58 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA07750 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA06402 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:17:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA03123 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:06:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA03110 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA20555 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:05:38 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4421589@isis.reed.edu> Date: 09 Dec 97 09:05:38 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication To: jharbeck@emerald.tufts.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O --- James Harbeck wrote: Communication is, in its simplest and least manipulated form, an act of mutual cooperation and faith between a sender and receiver which intends to result in as close a match as possible between the mental states of the one and the other. My mental picture when I say even something as simple as "red" or "the sun" will not be exactly the same as yours --- end of quote --- hmm, i thought that conception of meaning was no longer current among philosophers. Just to begin with, why should we think in pictures? . . . bill peck reed c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Dec 9 14:17:43 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA07588 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:17:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA13348 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA03259 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:11:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA03252 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA20561 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:10:21 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4421628@isis.reed.edu> Date: 09 Dec 97 09:10:16 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication To: wadowick@p-c-net.net, aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O --- "James L. Wadowick" wrote: Kevin Purrone has debated whether art expresses anything. Yes, it does. It expresses what the artist has discovered, a feeling or idea. On the other hand, art does not communicate anything, that is the job of language, which denotes not connotes things. --- end of quote --- another version of what i guess is the same sort of idea: language does not "connote" it only "denotes'? In logic that would mean there are no general terms, which is absurd. in common parlance it would mean that no langfuage is suggestive, expressive, dramatic, etc - it just gets across facts. which is obviously false. bill peck __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 10 06:45:18 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id GAA02123 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:45:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA05564 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:45:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id FAA03628 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id FAA03621 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:01:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from adss-sql.adss.on.ca (adss.on.ca [204.101.198.40]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id FAA13512 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from DOLESKE (DOLESKE [204.101.201.131]) by adss-sql.adss.on.ca (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.aavq) with ESMTP id ta120009 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:07:30 -0500 Message-ID: <348DB4AA.468E@adss.on.ca> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:14:18 -0500 From: i-am doleske Organization: centre of the universe X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "James L. Wadowick" CC: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expressing oneself References: <199712080205.VAA23384@atl1.america.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: i-am doleske Status: O James L. Wadowick wrote: > > The more one tries to make artistic creation "self-expression", the less > aesthetic is the result. > "Endangered Species" > > JaMar Music (Jim Wadowick) > 215 Glenwood Ave. > Troy, AL 36081 > 334-566-1664 dear jim: on a positive note: depending on the definition of "self" one expresses through. self as singular is in change. the aesthetics of it can be profound, mundane, any number of things. - doleske __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Dec 9 23:54:19 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA21576 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:54:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA15869 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:54:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA24521 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA24512 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:31:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA27470 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:30:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.40 (srq20.netline.net [205.160.7.26]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA18486 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:18:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <348DB8A4.1450@netline.net> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 21:32:16 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O >Just to begin with, why should we think in pictures? . . . >bill peck >reed c The simplest answer is economy. The old adage “a picture is worth a thousand words” is a gross under exaggeration. Look at the nearest picture for a couple of moments. Even if you are a really fast talker, you’re not going to convey much about the information in the pictures in the same amount of time that you spent glancing at the picture. Substantial temporal restraints make the propositional syntax of lexical information limited in a way that doesn’t plague the syntactical structure of depictive representations. In the case of pictorial representations in visual and mental imagery, the percipient can process different signifiers simultaneously whereas sentential representations can’t transcend their linear constraints. This is the reason that a great many artificial intelligence researchers are investigating actual and potential diagrammatic languages for computer programming, as opposed to the numerous sententially structured languages that are dominant. We are as much a result of evolutionary factors as anything else and are therefore subject to the same rules of economy. To think about images in lexical terms would be absurdly inefficient. This means that it would be in contradiction with the natural world, so it’s not too likely. This does not mean that depictive information is in all ways superior to linguistic information. Some thoughts are better served by the former, while others are by the latter. There was a time when some people were arguing that there was nothing outside of language because sententially based linguistic communication was the only tool that we had to investigate the question with. They were however, unaware of the recent advent of diagrammatic methods of exploring perceptual activities. Stephen Kosslyn of Harvard and others have used these tools to show that we think in both depictive and separate but conjunctive propositional representations that are syntactically disparate from one another. Kosslyn has demonstrated that we are so economical in the process of imagination that we fill our mental canvases with only essential information. As with a drawing, we complete the details of an image when necessary. If we imagine a tree, we may not fill in the texture of the bark until we focus our attention on it. SK’s experiments have also shown that we imagine novel combinations of familiar components and “we can “mentally draw” patterns that we have never actually seen.” _ Image and Brain _ pp.286. Perhaps artistic creation is in fact a mimicry of our mental happenings. Whether or not it is, we certainly draw on depictive thoughts in both art making and appreciation. Glenn English colorist@netline.net __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 10 17:43:44 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA18423 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA00966 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA21145 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA21136 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:09:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA12836 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:08:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.44 (srq04.netline.net [205.160.7.44]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA14709 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:55:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <348EA270.78AD@netline.net> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:09:06 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O On Wed. 12/10, George Bailey wrote: >If the information you refer to is other than what is learned when we experience qualities and judge them to be present in things not presently >experienced (a judgment that can be false), then to get it from the picture is to infer from what we see to the truth of the sentence we use to say to >ourselves what it is that we see. We do not encounter the information we are inferring from the picture until we present it to ourselves in ordinary >language. Experiencing a picture from which we can reasonably infer that a King had gout is not the same thing as entertaining or asserting the >proposition that the King had gout. If we learn enough about the context in which a painting was created, we may be able to hold that a painting >depicting the King with gout was created in order to get people to infer that the King actually has gout. But this is very different from producing a >sentence that asserts that the King has gout. The painting does not literally assert that the King has ! gout. The beliefs that GB has expressed here were prevalent in a great deal of the literature on the subject 25 years ago. Much of this literature (mostly that of French deconstructionists and eliminative cognitive linguists) still remains to be extremely valuable; so it is no surprise that it continues to be influential, even where it is clearly dated. The role of depictive imagery in our thinking and communication is one example. The *imagery debate* that crossed lines of cognitive science and philosophy raged on for the last quarter of a century and in some forms the debate continues but those who are still arguing for the primacy of lexical syntax in everyday thought and communication are now akin to the flat earth society. Since it wouldn’t be productive for us to relive a debate that has long since been resolved for our intents and purposes, I’ll suggest a few sources... Overwhelming evidence of reasoning with visual representations can be found at _ The Diagrammatic Reasoning _ site at: http://morpheus.hartford.edu/cs/faculty/anderson/ Another excellent source for this is Edward Tufte’s three books: _ The Visual Display of Quantitative Information _ 1983 _ Envisioning Information _ 1990 _ Visual Explanations _ 1997 A good general introduction for philosophers to the imagery debate is Michael Tye’s book aptly titled: _ The Imagery Debate _ 1991 MIT I'm sure that you could find a number of other good introductions with a search engine. For a more in depth exploration, I strongly recommend any recent writing from Stephen Kosslyn, head of the Psych dept. at Harvard. best wishes, Glenn English __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 10 12:50:33 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA27937 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA25850 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA10209 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA10202 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:07:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id KAA28820 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL6-ASYNC18.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA28224; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:05:29 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199712101454.JAA23151@atl1.america.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:02:51 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expressing oneself Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O >At 01:08 AM 12/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >>>The more one tries to make artistic creation "self-expression", the less >>>aesthetic is the result. >>Might we also propose : The more one attempts to make self expression >>aesthertic, the less artistic is the results >> >> >>Yes,but, that's sort saying almost the same thing. Here I would beg to differ. there is significant differences in the subject object of these two statements-- aesthetic and artistic are not one and the same __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 10 14:46:26 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA21800 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:46:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA20968 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA13092 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:16:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA13085 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:16:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (schools.eastnet.ecu.edu [150.216.8.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA00778 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA447 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:14:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 11:14:58 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-ID: <19971210161413875.AAA447@[150.216.15.103]> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id LAA13086 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O This discussion conflates (at least) two very different ways we can get information from something. (1) By making an inference from something's properties (any of its properties) to the truth or falsity of some determinate bit of information, and (2) by interpreting something as asserting the truth of some determinate bit of information (where we are justified in our interpretation in virtue of its linguistic properties). Inferring that a culture had discovered how to fire pottery from the presence of pottery in graves is an example of the first way we can get information from something. It is unfortunate that "communication" and "meaning" are used so loosely nowadays that in such a case it is said that "what this pottery means is that . . . " or "this pottery communicates to us that . . ." or "what this pottery is telling us is that . . . " This is sloppy talk. It begets sloppy thinking about communication and meaning by obscuring the distinction I am illustrating. Interp! ! reting what this e-mail text literally says is an example of the second way of getting information from something Infering from what my text literally says to my motives for saying this is an example of the first way of getting information from something that presupposed the independence of these two ways of getting information from something. In the first case, we "get information" by assuming a causal relation between what we see and the truth of the information we infer from what we see (the pottery we see could not have existed unless . . .). Everything is infinitely meaningful in the sense of meaningful fixed in the first case, not just pictures or art in general, since we can infer infinity many bits of information from anything whatever. In the sense in which a picture is worth a thousand words, everything is. This is nothing special about art. Note also that each bit of information we infer is information we present to ourselves in ordinary sentences. And, of cours! ! e, given the choice between inhering information from a picture of the actual tree . . . In the second case, we interpret what we see relative to the social practices that define the language it instantiates. The information content asserted by an item in this case is causally independent from the actual or possible state-of-affairs asserted to obtain. You can misinterpret pottery, but since it does not literally assert anything (you are rather making inferences from its non-linguistic properties), you cannot say of it that it is true or false. Anyone who believes that a picture is an economical way to assert the truth of lots of determinate bits of information can prove this by producing a picture that asserts as true everything I say here. Pictures qua pictures do not assert (say, state) anything. They can be used to by people who are making assertions to assist in fixing (sometimes via depiction) what is being asserted in appropriate contexts, and we can infer infinitely many things from them, but, unlike declarative sentences, they lack the syntactic and semantic properties necessary to making assertions in their own right. Thus they cannot have truth value's in their own right. The following is a third way we may obtain information from something although that thing is not literally communicating or saying what we learn from it. We correctly infer from what we see that something else shares its qualities. This ability to learn of one thing's qualities from their presence in another thing, which Pierce called ikonic meaning, is of relevance to people who believe that we can literally encounter the actual spiritual qualities of the divine or the actual emotional qualities of the human condition in various human artifacts (paintings, for example). Here nothing represents the qualities (so semiotic categories do not apply); the actual qualities are supposedly genuinely present in the artifact. What it is about the artifact in virtue of which it embodies the qualities is another issue, but containing a quality is not representing it. This is not a case of communication. RE: > Even if you are a >really fast talker, you’re not going to convey much about the >information in the pictures in the same amount of time that you >spent glancing at the picture. If the information you refer to is other than what is learned when we experience qualities and judge them to be present in things not presently experienced (a judgment that can be false), then to get it from the picture is to infer from what we see to the truth of the sentence we use to say to ourselves what it is that we see. We do not encounter the information we are inferring from the picture until we present it to ourselves in ordinary language. Experiencing a picture from which we can reasonably infer that a King had gout is not the same thing as entertaining or asserting the proposition that the King had gout. If we learn enough about the context in which a painting was created, we may be able to hold that a painting depicting the King with gout was created in order to get people to infer that the King actually has gout. But this is very different from producing a sentence that asserts that the King has gout. The painting does not literally assert that the King has ! ! gout. A painter can use the painting to try to get people to guess that the King has gout, based upon what they see in the painting, their beliefs about the painter's motives and intentions, etc. But it may turn out that the painter is not trying to get viewers to infer that the King actually has gout. Rather, hating the King, the painter lets off steam by doing a series of paintings depicting the King with various diseases, none of which the King actually has. If you said to the painter, speaking loosely as is popular nowadays, "so you are saying that the King has gout" he would reply, "no, I'm not saying that, I just like to depict him with gout." Here the better description of the painting is that the painter is using it to vent dislike of the King by depicting the King with gout. Then again the painting may just be at attempt to deal with a difficult subject. Say, a sickly King has a sickly twin, and a painter undertakes to depict the King because it is a challenge to ! ! produce an image that will be interpreted as of the King without u painter does not want viewers to infer anything of the person depicted other than that it is the King and not his brother (both of whom have gout, which everybody already knows anyway or the would not interpret it as of either the king or his brother). Of course, we can infer infinitely many bits of information, true and false, from the painting, though speaking literally, it says nothing. - George Bailey __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 10 20:14:00 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA26135 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:13:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA19647 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:13:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA02348 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:42:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA02341 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.greenvillenc.com (root@[207.201.229.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA28964 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.201.229.34] (dialup-34.greenvillenc.com [207.201.229.34]) by ns1.greenvillenc.com (8.8.4/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA22183 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:41:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199712102241.RAA22183@ns1.greenvillenc.com> Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 17:48:49 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: GWS Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id RAA02342 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: GWS Bailey Status: O RE: > >The beliefs that GB has expressed here were prevalent in a great deal of >the literature on the subject 25 years ago. Etc. I said nothing about thinking, mental imagery, reasoning or the like. I only address whether pictures literally contain meaning (fix determinate bits of information as their content and assert same) as do declarative sentences. This is what pictures would have to do to fit what a lot of people claim about them. I certainly have not addressed how brains respond to input with such and such output, nor would I. This is an issue for neurobiology. Thinking in mental pictures or with mental pictures and mental sentences happens all the time, but this is not directly relevant to my comments. I also did not claim that a depiction cannot be used, in conjunction with other things, with the result that someone acquainted with the depiction and other things (believes about the artist's motives, intentions, etc.) cannot reasonable infer from all of this that the information the artist wants to communicate is such-and-such. This happens with editorial cartoons all the time, Funny that they are not counted as high art, being as they are one of the few examples of an artform that artists regularly use to successfully communicate to an audience with no knowledge of art history their attitude towards something or the other. >Much of this literature . . . it is clearly dated. Scientific literature becomes dated. Philosophical literature does not. >those >who are still arguing for the primacy of lexical syntax in everyday thought >and communication are now akin to the flat earth society. This is neutral as regards the distinction I draw. "Everyday communication" - that is, the everyday use of language, involves a great deal of inference an less reading than ever. Since much such inference is based on false beliefs, perhaps this is why communication fails so frequently. And in some categories the everyday use of language is for most speakers entirely emotive (talk about God, for example). Language is not used to say anything about God, only to stroke or hit whomever the "conversation" is with. This does not mean that we cannot assert propositions about God, just that most people engaging in God talk are not using language to do so. > >Since it would’t be productive for us to relive a debate that has long >since been resolved for our intents and purposes, I suggest "your" not "our." Though I agree that we use visual imagery in thinking. But I also think this is a problematic claim. - George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 10 20:17:39 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA27691 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:17:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA18999 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:17:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA03013 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:02:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA03006 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.greenvillenc.com (root@[207.201.229.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA19125 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.201.229.18] (dialup-18.greenvillenc.com [207.201.229.18]) by ns1.greenvillenc.com (8.8.4/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA23532 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:02:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199712102302.SAA23532@ns1.greenvillenc.com> Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 18:09:17 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: GWS Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: GWS Bailey Status: O re: >>2. Given that literal meaning gets does not get one very far even in >understanding speech-acts (I of course mean linguistic ones, should there >thought to be others), it is unclear how much of an impediment visual >representation's common lack thereof is to being properly interpretable as >asserting truths. Granted, it might in general be otiose to ask what the >artist meant by a painting. But there situations under which it makes as >much to interpret a painting as intended to assert something like "The King >has gout" as it does to interpret the sentence "Why, of course the king >doesn't have gout" as intended to assert the same. This is consistent with what I said. There can be situations in which it is reasonable to take a person to be using anything (a depiction or a hammer or an old sock) in a context in which it is reasonable to infer that a certain bit of information is what that person wants us to take her to be communicating. I will claim, however, that most of the time that artists, art historians, art critics, and philosophers of art assert that a specific 20th century painting in the modernist tradition is saying such and such, it is simply false that the painting is playing any role at all in saying such and such. The only saying of such and such is what is said in saying what the painting is saying. But when a depiction is used by someone in a context that lets us infer what she wants us to communicate, we can judge the content of the communication to be true of false. This asserted content is fixed by all relevant aspects of the event, not merely by the depiction, as some people seem to believe. I.e., we rarely base >our understanding of what a sentence X asserts only on X's linguistic >properties; we also take into account context. I would say that we rerely base what a speaker is doing with a sentence that asserts such and such on the fact that the sentence asserts such and such. We often care more about what is being done with a sentence that asserts such and such than with the truth of what it asserts. So also we often care more about what someone is doing with their art, treating our guesses about this as the work's meaning, than with whether the work is part of a context that justifies our attributing to the work's author the intention to communicate this or that information to us. We do not care about information carried by the work or the work plus context that is the intended communication, but with what the artist (or other) is up to - what they are trying to do to us or get us to do. These claims are neutral to the distinction I draw, which I still maintain is important, given the number of people who attribute propositional content to depictions. >Just because we cannot interpret a work >as making only one truth-claim, it does not follow that it is not making >any. No. But the greater the ambiguity or vagueness inherent in a means of communication, the less sense it makes use it if what one really wants to do is to communicate. Now, if one wants to obscure communication, leaving everyone free to interpret what they see as they wish, this can be done in painting or words. - George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 10 17:43:45 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA18427 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA06726 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA22758 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:33:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA22744 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:32:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id OAA17718 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:31:49 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4436133@isis.reed.edu> Date: 10 Dec 97 11:31:48 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication To: colorist@netline.net, aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O re Glenn English's intererestingly detailed commoent on thinking in pictures: I was not thinking about language, i was thinking about thinking, conceptually. To follow Grandfather Descartes, look at = think about the relation of geometrical figures and algebra. bill peck reed c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 10 19:36:44 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA11060 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:36:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA11816 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:36:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA29525 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA29518 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from graf.cc.emory.edu (graf.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.44]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA08055 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:32:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mverhae.resnet.emory.edu (GA-j26.resnet.emory.edu [170.140.88.218]) by graf.cc.emory.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9-950630.01osg-itd.null) with SMTP id QAA27661; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:28:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971210163345.006aed00@pop3.service.emory.edu> X-Sender: mverhae@pop3.service.emory.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:33:45 -0500 To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey), From: Marcus Verhaegh Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication In-Reply-To: <19971210161413875.AAA447@[150.216.15.103]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Marcus Verhaegh Status: O 1. I didn't quite know what to make of Glenn English's post, but if it is claiming that the debate about (visual) art as language has somehow been resolved.... To point out that something like a diagram can be used to communicate in a way similar to, but richly different than, language isn't much of a claim. One still wonders how much of visual representation can be conceived of in such terms. Moreover, one wonders how much linguistic accompaniment is necessary to something like a diagram in order to give it a "literal meaning" or the like: in the main, to give it a definite reference. 2. Given that literal meaning gets does not get one very far even in understanding speech-acts (I of course mean linguistic ones, should there thought to be others), it is unclear how much of an impediment visual representation's common lack thereof is to being properly interpretable as asserting truths. Granted, it might in general be otiose to ask what the artist meant by a painting. But there situations under which it makes as much to interpret a painting as intended to assert something like "The King has gout" as it does to interpret the sentence "Why, of course the king doesn't have gout" as intended to assert the same. I.e., we rarely base our understanding of what a sentence X asserts only on X's linguistic properties; we also take into account context. Why, then, priveledge linguistic properties as the only route by which truth claims can be made? Visual representations do not (tend to?) offer singular meanings which allow us to say of the representations that they are true or false in any definitive sense; but what of it? Just because we cannot interpret a work as making only one truth-claim, it does not follow that it is not making any. Neither does this follow from the fact that a work's primary communicative value might reside elsewhere than in its verity. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 10 22:09:40 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id WAA15611 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:09:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA09687 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA06715 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA06708 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:08:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from graf.cc.emory.edu (graf.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.44]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA26684 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mverhae.resnet.emory.edu (GA-j26.resnet.emory.edu [170.140.88.218]) by graf.cc.emory.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9-950630.01osg-itd.null) with SMTP id UAA04580; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:01:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971210200723.006aac90@pop3.service.emory.edu> X-Sender: mverhae@pop3.service.emory.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:07:23 -0500 To: GWS Bailey , From: Marcus Verhaegh Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication In-Reply-To: <199712102302.SAA23532@ns1.greenvillenc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Marcus Verhaegh Status: O >>Just because we cannot interpret a work >>as making only one truth-claim, it does not follow that it is not making >>any. > >No. But the greater the ambiguity or vagueness inherent in a means of >communication, the less sense it makes use it if what one really wants to >do is to communicate. Now, if one wants to obscure communication, leaving >everyone free to interpret what they see as they wish, this can be done >in painting or words. - George I disagree. There are good reasons to use ambiguous or vague means of communication _as_ means of communication; although perhaps not if _all_ one want to do is communicate (if think there are good reasons then as well, but I wont argue that here). I will certainlty allow that object's ambiguity of meaning can be of value in other ways--such as providing content whose contemplation enlivens the viewer's mental life, to speak in broadly Kantian terms. But such enlivenment need not involve communication, at least in the sense of having and recognizing intentions. Why use ambigous/vague means of communication as such? Not to leave the viewer free to make whatever interpretion they wish, but to communicate truths which: 1) (continue to) have relevance in a variety of contexts 2) are embedded in a context which helps makes their relevance evident--both its existence and its form An example: Consider Rapheal's _The School of Athens_. We can find certain truth claims in the work from the poses in which the philosophers are placed. --For instance, that Plato is to be opposed to Aristotle, the first teaching that human flourishing is to be gotten by knowledge of other otherworldy, the latter instisting on the role of worldy factors like health, etc. One would obviously have to be familiar with both P + A to arrive at such an interpretation, but it is not difficult to imagine the painting crystallizing one's understanding. --That the conflict between P + A is an important one, worthy of study. --That other Greek philosophers are less worthy in that regards. These truth-claims function in ways they might not if merely written down. Their enshrinment in fresco shows that they are taken seriously by various authorities one might trust. Similarly, this enshrinement allows a more general valorization of them, by providing a kind of reference point upon which praise can be laid. Such valorization continues to this day, and serves an important function in the continuance of various traditions. Ambiguity and vagueness allow one to find other truths in the painting, which can be useful should certain ones become discredited. The entire edifice of tradition is thereby kept from crumbling in the way that could occur if a valorized text was perfectly clear in its truth-claims--or even just in some of these--yet not credible on a few embaressingly central points. This is only one example, and a rather poor one, but oh well... --Just because it is difficult or impossible to verify one's interpretations, this does not mean they are not correct or valuable. --A separate point, and perhaps my real one: there are good reasons to interpret ambigous meaning as ambigous communication. One then takes seriouly the possibility of truth-claims in an art-work, to name such a reason. --One last function of ambiguity worth mentioning: Expression of a great deal of information with only a little (the compression encoding theory of art). __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 10 23:41:40 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA24596 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:41:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA13988 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA09719 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:53:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA09712 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:52:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA14776 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:51:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EL000M017YL2Y@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:51:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:51:57 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication (fwd) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O In my previous missive, in attmepting to be brief, I left several things as assumed, and some of them, it seems, have not been taken as assumed. William Peck refers to my speaking of "mental pictures"--well, that was a term of convenience. I know quite well that one's cognitive schemata are greatly impoverished metaphorically by being referred to as pictures. But on the other hand it's a convenient term if one is trying to avoid an extra thousand or more words. Ultimately the necessary response is, "Go read several books on cognitive psychology, philosophy of language, etc., etc.," but that's somewhat unhelpful by itself; I thought perhaps tossing in few comments to introduce the question might be more apropos. I don't expect to be able to keep everyone happy... Saul Ostrow sent me some comments which at first I didn't notice were not also forwarded to the list. He may wish to forward them if he wishes; I'll leave that up to him. But he presented a few objections which stimulate to say what I mean at slightly greater length, for better or worse. Again, I took it as assumed for the moment that the individual perception is tutored by interaction with society. In fact, I rather clearly implied that existence between persons in the world is a cooperative effort. I didn't underline enough the extent to which input from other persons and things is the necessary catalyst for one's own intellectual progression. But when we speak of art as residing within the terms of the social, we are similarly incomplete until we look at what exactly is the basis of the social. The social does not exist independently of the individuals who constitute it, even as they feed on it. Everything social--and language is of course an excellent example of this--is produced by the mutual cooperation of ends which I spoke of in my last post. "Mutual cooperation? But what about all the conflict!" (I may as well provide that ready objection.) Response: one well-schooled in pragmatics knows that any given action will tend to have numerous ends which it achieves, and, similarly, there is nothing simple about human interaction on any level. In order to engage in conflict with a person, there are a number of agreements on terms which must be entered into. Unless an attack is purely physical, for instance, it relies on the existence of a mutual code of communication between persons--usually a good assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. And even the reasons for attacking a person will tend to arise out of some situation which exists primarily in the minds of those involved. If I'm starving and someone else has food that they want to keep, that's one thing, but if someone cuts me off in traffic the slight is clearly dependent on interpersonal status negotiations and perceptions, arise though they may from some more basic instincts. An anlogy: the table on which I write is made of atoms bonded together. I would be an ass if I were to say that it is nothing but individual atoms doing their own thing--which is analogous to that which I seemed but did not intend to suggest--but I would be equally an ass if I were to say that it has any existence independent of the atoms that make it up, or that the atoms could not exist without it. Again, fire is an interaction between molecules (for example, C2H5OH and O2) in which some of the matter of which they are made is converted to energy (which means, as we know, that matter and energy are the same thing). Is fire pure energy? Could it exist without the atoms? Even if at the bottom level matter is energy, at one level up it is particles, and thoise are necessary for the futher levels. So too all humans are made of the same basic stuff and have similar psychologies, but the social level is a level of complexity further on from that of individuals. Especially for the hard-line materialists who make up many of the voices in current academic debates. If you're willing to suggest that art is a spiritual creation welling up from the deepest level of spiritual communion between beings, I think we can have a very interesting conversation, but even then it has to be acknowledged that art is something which is experienced by means of the external, physical sphere, and that its perception is something which is felt by individuals. Or could it be explained to me how a society can feel something without its being mediated by individuals? It was suggested that I was speaking of a composer "inflict[ing] sadness" on a listener, which is an interesting misunderstanding. When I listen to the slow movement of Beethoven's Seventh, I do not accuse him of inflicting melancholy on me; I sought it out to experience it as an aesthetic emotion. My view of aesthetic emotions, tutored by semiotics and cognitive psychology as well as a few aesthetic philosophers, is that they are not at root different from ordinary emotions but are metacognized differently. I know I can run into some disagreement on that point. It isn't central to the question at hand here, however. The question is whether it counts as communication if I specifically intend to produce in the recipient some perception of the situation other than the one I myself hold. In fact, this does not truly pertain to the example I used, for I was speaking of when, for instance, a composer has a specific articulation of a feeling of some aesthetically perceived "sadness" which he wishes to engender also in the listener--this is no more manipulative than when a novelist wishes to have her readers picture some nonexistent place which she has formed in her mind, and who will gainsay the communicative nature of that? But this leads us to an answer to the question, for if false things understood to be false can be communicated as such, can false things understood to be false by one be communicated as true to another? Well, say I tell you right now, for whatever reason, that I am 5'7" tall, 190 lbs, and 47 years old. Communication, n'est-ce pas? But now I will tell you that I am none of these things. Does that mean that when you thought I was as described, there was no communication? How then did you understand what I wrote? Communication can be manipulative. In fact, from one perspective, communication is always manipulative: it aims to make another think as one wishes him or her to think (if I say, "I ate ceral for breakfast this morning," then it is because I wish you to have that--I won't say picture--idea in your mind, for whatever reason it is that prompts me to tell you). It's just that most of the time one aims for the other to come to an understanding functionally similar to one's own--it is largely cooperative. But sometimes more uncooperative aims take over the cooperative medium. We don't tend to look well on this, but that doesn't keep it from being also communication, if of a different sort. As to "good art," "bad art," "sophomoric, banal and opportunistic art," and so forth, I will not deny that they are things which exist in the sphere of social interaction as conventions agreed on by varying numbers of people. But the very fact that there are so many disputes over whether a given work is good, or bad, or asinine, or whatever, lends strength to the point I was trying to press: that they are not more-or-less "objectively" verifiable entities such as cats, dogs, and tenured professors are, but are rather ways of speaking about individual experiences which, being experiences of emotional (or meta-emotional, or what have you) states, exist solely within the minds of the percipients. A hydraulic winch is powerful: it can lift X pounds, and anyone can use any object weighing that much to make it so. A painting is powerful: it moves Jack to tears: but John thinks it's sophomoric bullshit. Maybe John is an idiot, but ain't nothing going to make that painting move him a bit. Whereas the winch could lift him even if he were an idiot. Art relies on communication (in the sense which includes manipulation), and is a function of agreement and cooperation between persons, but likewise like all things communicated (not using the sense of communication which includes me passing an object to you without regard to intellectual understandings pertaining) consists fundamentally in the individual, and because it involves complex aesthetic/emotional states which do not have the clarity of words such as "sky," "stone," and "email," simply cannot be treated as something which is independently verifiable and subject to being pinned down. I hope that this makes more sense out of what I meant. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 15:37:08 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA17893 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:37:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA12916 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:37:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA27458 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA27416 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA10270 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:25:25 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4443482@isis.reed.edu> Date: 11 Dec 97 01:09:28 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O I am having difficulty with the following remarks by GWS Bailey. >--A separate point, and perhaps my real one: there are good reasons to interpret ambigous meaning[s?]as ambigous communication. One then takes seriou[s]ly the possibility of truth-claims in an art-work, to name such areason.< Plain, old-fashioned ambiguity can be found in the sentence, 'George told Bill he didn't have to show him his ticket because he worked there.' Here, of course, the possibility that both pronouns could refer equally well to George or to Bill renders the sentence opaque to anyone who does not know to which of them the speaker meant to refer. Absolutely nothing is 'communicated' (in any of the senses of 'communicate' with which I'm familiar) to someone who does not know the speaker's intentions. This particular utterance does not give the unguided hearer to understand anything; a fortiori it does not give the unguided hearer to understand a multiplicity of things. Surely, few think that the warning 'Do Not Eat' which is found on the little packets of silica gel that are packed with some items to absorb moisture is an exhortation to fast; but as there are countless ways in which inscriptions and utterances might be understood (or misunderstood), it is not beyond belief that someday someone's life might be changed by so taking it. But that someone might see in this simple warning a 'divine message' to refrain from taking nourishment says nothing about the benefits of ambiguity as a means of communicating--although it perhaps says something about how human beings can misread a text. The first thing that comes to mind when I think of 'ambiguous communication' is what the witches tell Macbeth. All good wishes, Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 18:40:19 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA02869 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:40:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA29569 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:40:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA08262 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:05:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA08255 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:05:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA05143 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.73 (srq13.netline.net [205.160.7.73]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA02689 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:52:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3490013B.1893@netline.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:05:59 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O On Thursday 12/11, George Bailey wrote: >(Or maybe it just works heuristically, as do the diagrams >mentioned by another contributor to this forum.) Is there some evidence to support such a position? Although diagrams can of course be employed for heuristic purposes, it seems nonsensical to suggest that they only work in that way. Would the same hold true for the diagrammatic aspects of a canonically sanctioned *work of art*? GB: >Some people tell me that Escher's prints crystallize their understanding >of five-dimensional space. I am skeptical that the feeling they get really >constitutes a better grasp of five-dimensional space, but hey, maybe they >are right. Yes, I think they are. Many great discoveries came from a dream or daydream of an image that opened the percipient up to a new way of thinking about a problem. I believe this was the case for Einstein and his theory of relativity. Perhaps someone on the list recalls the specifics of his reported vision? Roger Shepard (winner of The National Medal of Science) has written in his Escher inspired book _ Mind Sights _ that our use of pictorial imagination as a means of gaining understanding is an essential part of our genetically inherited makeup. Shepard’s most renowned contribution to our understanding of perception is his investigation of mental rotation. His experiments specifically demonstrate how we use our visual imagination for problem solving. There is an important aspect of his and other’s findings, that may go to the root of the myriad confusions about mental and artistic imagery. The brain utilizes shared mechanisms for both, meaning that in some respects they are essentially the same. This is part of why I see an understanding of mental imagery as being of paramount importance to an understanding of artistic imagery. all the best, Glenn English __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 12:58:29 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA28847 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:58:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA14823 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:58:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA22590 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA22583 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id KAA13994 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL2-ASYNC32.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA22672; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:13:08 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <348EBF1D.2926DFB5@nyu.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:10:31 -0500 To: ats7244@nyu.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expressing oneself Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O >Saul, is that you? > >I havn't been following this thread...but what is it that you are trying to >say? > >Your faithful student, > >Avram... It is I as to what is the point of this short exchange? That the aesthetizaton of self expression has to doo with the codification and lostof the self while the attempt to make art self-expression has to do with the objectification of subjectivism (intent) in both cases art as a conceptual and social institution looses its purposefulness (its ability to put forth propositions about its state in its world and therefor about us) > > >Ostrow/Kaneda wrote: > >> >At 01:08 AM 12/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >>>The more one tries to make artistic creation "self-expression", the less >> >>>aesthetic is the result. >> >>Might we also propose : The more one attempts to make self expression >> >>aesthertic, the less artistic is the results >> >> >> >> >> >>Yes,but, that's sort saying almost the same thing. >> >> Here I would beg to differ. there is significant differences in the subject >> object of these two statements-- aesthetic and artistic are not one and the >> same > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 12:56:13 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA27279 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA19409 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA22989 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:24:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA22627 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:15:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id KAA30830 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:14:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL2-ASYNC32.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA30744; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:14:29 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:11:52 -0500 To: ats7244@nyu.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expressing oneself Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O >Saul, is that you? > >I havn't been following this thread...but what is it that you are trying to >say? > >Your faithful student, > >Avram... It is I as to what is the point of this short exchange? That the aesthetizaton of self expression has to doo with the codification and lostof the self while the attempt to make art self-expression has to do with the objectification of subjectivism (intent) in both cases art as a conceptual and social institution looses its purposefulness (its ability to put forth propositions about its state in its world and therefor about us) > > >Ostrow/Kaneda wrote: > >> >At 01:08 AM 12/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >>>The more one tries to make artistic creation "self-expression", the less >> >>>aesthetic is the result. >> >>Might we also propose : The more one attempts to make self expression >> >>aesthertic, the less artistic is the results >> >> >> >> >> >>Yes,but, that's sort saying almost the same thing. >> >> Here I would beg to differ. there is significant differences in the subject >> object of these two statements-- aesthetic and artistic are not one and the >> same > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 12:55:14 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA26489 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:55:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA26942 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA23013 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA22718 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id KAA26196 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:16:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL2-ASYNC32.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA06129; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:15:49 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:13:12 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expressing oneself Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O >Saul, is that you? > >I havn't been following this thread...but what is it that you are trying to >say? > >Your faithful student, > >Avram... It is I as to what is the point of this short exchange? That the aesthetizaton of self expression has to doo with the codification and lostof the self while the attempt to make art self-expression has to do with the objectification of subjectivism (intent) in both cases art as a conceptual and social institution looses its purposefulness (its ability to put forth propositions about its state in its world and therefor about us) > > >Ostrow/Kaneda wrote: > >> >At 01:08 AM 12/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >>>The more one tries to make artistic creation "self-expression", the less >> >>>aesthetic is the result. >> >>Might we also propose : The more one attempts to make self expression >> >>aesthertic, the less artistic is the results >> >> >> >> >> >>Yes,but, that's sort saying almost the same thing. >> >> Here I would beg to differ. there is significant differences in the subject >> object of these two statements-- aesthetic and artistic are not one and the >> same > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 14:38:43 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA09598 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA18618 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA24551 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:20:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA24532 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:20:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (schools.eastnet.ecu.edu [150.216.8.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA30825 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:19:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA177 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:19:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 11:19:59 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19971211161911437.AAA177@[150.216.15.103]> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O RE: > There are good reasons to use ambiguous or vague means of >communication _as_ means of communication; although perhaps not if _all_ >one want to do is communicate (if think there are good reasons then as >well, but I wont argue that here). I think that you do argue the parenthetical remark in what follows. I was only questioning the value of deliberate vagueness and ambiguity when one supposedly wants only to present information to another. (BTW, here "vagueness" and "ambiguity" are used for cases where such can be avoided if desired, not for cases where they are characteristics of the predicates being used (vague or ambiguous kinds, for example).) I agree that other goals than communication, goals such as the U.S. government had when presenting disinformation to the public during the Vietnam war, or the goal of being elected to public office, are goals to which vagueness and ambiguity are invaluable allies. > >I will certainlty allow that object's ambiguity of meaning can be of value >in other ways--such as providing content whose contemplation enlivens the >viewer's mental life, to speak in broadly Kantian terms. Given my primary concern with the relevance of all this to the critique of the visual arts as a communication medium, this response seems to me to be a patronizing defense of obscurity. This response is usually put to me this way: "ambiguous or vague content is very stimulating" - which in context I take to mean, 'stimulates viewers to think." This assumes that the target audience is such that it cannot be provoked to think more deeply and critically and effectively by communication that aims to be as clear as possible. Really, is the audience then mentally inferior to those who, while they can express their thoughts clearly, choose not to do so as the only way to stimulate those less adept to think of certain things? I say "think of" and not "think about," since seriously thinking about a profound philosophical issue requires engaging a great deal more information that is presented in a museum full of visual works of art. Or perhaps all we mean is that the ambiguous work will cause the viewer to seek out such information in texts? Well, if so, the statistical evidence is that this seldom happens. (There are cases where we cannot avoid ambiguity; where something ambiguous is the only grasp we have for now of something. This applies to what can be said in words, so presumably we are not talking about such cases here.) >Why use ambiguous/vague means of communication as such? . . . to communicate >truths which: > >1) (continue to) have relevance in a variety of contexts >2) are embedded in a context which helps makes their relevance >evident--both its existence and its form I think what follows is an argument for the use of painting, a medium which usually cannot avoid a degree of ambiguity, to achieve the described goals. I do not see it as a defense of the use of ambiguity as such. except perhaps where you talk about tradition being sustained by a flawed text. That is, in general the virtues you attribute to the painting you describe are not virtues it has because it is ambiguous, but are virtues it would have to the extent that it had a determinate meaning content. I also note that I did not claim that paintings from art historical periods prior to 20th century modernism were not used to communicate. I limited myself to the claim that works of modern art make statements. Art historians tell me that during previous centuries public interpretive conventions existed that allowed people to "read" paintings in a limited way much as the conventions of contemporary editorial cartoons allow us to "read" from the cartoon what the artist is for or against. I am told that the presence of a certain type of dog in a painting in which a male and female were depicted was read as stating that the couple were having an affair. Well, if these were the interpretive conventions operative at the time, then this is an example of how a picture can be used to make an assertion. No one has alleged to me the existence of interpretive conventions that allow the assertion of something both abstract and profound (unless you do so below, that is). The sorts of interpretive conventions regular and commonplace in certain parts of society in the past do not have a counterpart in 20th century modern art, perhaps in part because many of the movers and shakers in modern art were at pains not to conform to any of the conventions of their predecessors. Each was trying to invent a language of her own, which almost ensures that attempts at communication will fail. >An example: Consider Rapheal's _The School of Athens_. We can find >certain truth claims in the work from the poses in which the philosophers >are placed. > > --For instance, that Plato is to be opposed to Aristotle, the first >teaching that human flourishing is to be gotten by knowledge of other >otherworldy, the latter instisting on the role of worldy factors like >health, etc. One would obviously have to be familiar with both P + A to >arrive at such an interpretation, but it is not difficult to imagine the >painting crystallizing one's understanding. > --That the conflict between P + A is an important one, worthy of study. > --That other Greek philosophers are less worthy in that regards. > I disagree that we "find" these truth claims in the work. What the work depicts serves to illustrate the information you provide in words. When the painting is explained to viewers ignorant of the history and content of the Plato/Aristotle opposition, the information content that makes seeing the work as an illustration of the opposition is provided in ordinary language. Without first having this information, one cannot see the painting as you do. Yet this same information is what you see the painting as asserting. The painting is illustrating this information, it is not asserting it (which is not to say it couldn't if interpretive conventions existed that . . . but then what need has a literate society for such interpretive conventions?) The significance of the statements that modern (and so-called postmodern) artists provide verbally or in writing when discussing their visual works is that without these statements we are often at a loss as regards whether to see their work as a depiction of this or of that. The artist statement decreases the ambiguity of the visual object, in that it enables to see it as a depiction that illustrates the artist's statement. In turn, this allows us to evaluate the work's degree success as a depiction illustrating the artist's statement. (In turn, this renders accessible to viewers both exhibited and unexhibited expressive or aesthetic qualities that cannot be experienced untill the visual object is seen as a depiction illustrating such and such.) Against this background, if you tell me that experiencing a work that successfully illustrates an artist's statement can provoke a sense of having a deeper or more insightful grasp or understanding of the statement, I will agree. Depictions sometimes seem to provoke a dimension of comprehension not present in the original presentation of the artist's statement in words. But I am skeptical about the value of what is seemingly present; I am skeptical about taking it as a genuine source of insight or wisdom. I am especially skeptical when the statement being illustrated is about something of philosophical significance, as opposed to the obvious, such as "the surface of a painting is flat." I am skeptical that illustrations can add to our philosophical understanding. But this is not to say that they cannot. >These truth-claims function in ways they might not if merely written down. >Their enshrinment in fresco shows that they are taken seriously by various >authorities one might trust. Are you endorsing the value of appeals to authority? Shouldn't people distrust such appeals. >Similarly, this enshrinement allows a more >general valorization of them, Someone's using such devices to condition viewers to valorize things he or she asserts as true is not a good thing. >Such valorization continues to this day, and >serves an important function in the continuance of various traditions. Your reference to tradition bothers me because traditions qua traditions may be good or bad. If there is a good reason to continue something traditional, then for that reason we should continue what has become a tradition. If we have to valorize a tradition to ensure its survival, this is one sign that it is a tradition that ought not to survive. >The entire >edifice of tradition is thereby kept from crumbling in the way that could >occur if a valorized text was perfectly clear in its truth-claims--or even >just in some of these--yet not credible on a few embaressingly central >points. Are you sayingthat in order to avoid having people reject a tradition because the text that sustains it is found to contain errors, we should make it too ambiguous to allow the identification of error? The way a tradition that ought to continue should be kept alive is by people critically thinking and rethinking why they are doing whatever constitutes the tradition. The notion that a genuinely valuable activity (that happens to be traditional) could not survive unless tied to a text (which happens to be imperfect, as all text of significance are) ignores the fact that if an activity is genuinely valuable, then there are reasons why it is so that can be discovered independently of reading the text (or is the author of the text the only competent thinker in the universe?). On the other hand, if all that could be said for continuing a tradition was what was said in a fundamentally flawed text, then in this situation we have not reason to continue the tradition (or not to continue) the tradition. >--A separate point, and perhaps my real one: there are good reasons to >interpret ambiguous meaning as ambiguous communication. One then takes >seriouly the possibility of truth-claims in an art-work, to name such a >reason. If I take seriously the possibility of truth-claims in an art-work, it is because of what you and others and I express in words here and elsewhere, not because of what can be found in a work of visual art prior to my considering what we are saying here. (Since I agree that some works do make assertions, I acknowledge the actuality, not just the possibility . . . ) But I do not think that Rapheal's painting asserts what you say it does. I think it illustrates these things which the viewer must learn from a source external to the work in order to be able to see the work as the work it is. For me your most important claim is that the painting can "crystallize one's understanding" of the things you mention. As noted above, sometimes this seems to be so. Some people tell me that Escher's prints crystallize their understanding of five-dimensional space. I am skeptical that the feeling they get really constitutes a better grasp of five-dimensional space, but hey, maybe they are right. (Or maybe it just works heuristically, as do the diagrams mentioned by another contributor to this forum.) In principle, a visual work that illustrates information presented in words can add new information, and when this information is of the unique character of unique visual qualities, it is something that cannot presented in words. But it is not the character of unique visual qualities that most 20th century modernists are supposedly communicating, nor is this what that the painting you describe is about (as you describe it). George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 14:52:05 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA18254 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA19590 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA26521 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:04:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA26513 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from jon.webdev.co.uk ([195.137.1.133]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA06388 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jon@localhost) by jon.webdev.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15055 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:02:44 GMT Resent-Message-Id: <199712111702.RAA15055@jon.webdev.co.uk> Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on Linux Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:23:18 -0000 (GMT) Resent-From: Jon Ewing Resent-To: James Harbeck Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:40:18 -0000 (GMT) Organization: Webdevelopment From: Jon Ewing To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: FW: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication (fwd) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Jon Ewing Status: O >The question is >whether it counts as communication if I specifically intend to produce in >the recipient some perception of the situation other than the one I myself >hold. In fact, this does not truly pertain to the example I used, for I >was speaking of when, for instance, a composer has a specific articulation >of a feeling of some aesthetically perceived "sadness" which he wishes to >engender also in the listener--this is no more manipulative than when a >novelist wishes to have her readers picture some nonexistent place which >she has formed in her mind, and who will gainsay the communicative nature >of that? But this leads us to an answer to the question, for if false >things understood to be false can be communicated as such, can false >things understood to be false by one be communicated as true to another? >Well, say I tell you right now, for whatever reason, that I am 5'7" tall, >190 lbs, and 47 years old. Communication, n'est-ce pas? But now I will >tell you that I am none of these things. Does that mean that when you >thought I was as described, there was no communication? How then did you >understand what I wrote? Communication can be manipulative. In fact, from >one perspective, communication is always manipulative: it aims to make >another think as one wishes him or her to think (if I say, "I ate ceral >for breakfast this morning," then it is because I wish you to have that--I >won't say picture--idea in your mind, for whatever reason it is that >prompts me to tell you). It's just that most of the time one aims for the >other to come to an understanding functionally similar to one's own--it is >largely cooperative. But sometimes more uncooperative aims take over the >cooperative medium. We don't tend to look well on this, but that doesn't >keep it from being also communication, if of a different sort. [2] Right! 'Testimony' (for want of a better word) - the business of communicating about the real world - is only a subset of the business of communicating as a whole. (please preface every sentence with 'I believe', 'I think' or 'IMHO'). Within natural language there are not only sentences to which we can (epistemological concerns aside) assign truth and falsity too, but also those to which the assignation is not applicable. It is trivially true that, for instance, a science fiction novel is not 'true', but the context of the novel allows the author the freedom to design his/her own world with its own semantic mappings. Or jokes - 'A man walked into a bar...' is not the kind of sentence to justify a 'No he didn't - prove it!' response. We enter into a kind of agreement with the communicator that we'll shift our focus from reality to their fictional world for the time being. However, for some reason its not a complete suspension of belief - we still describe a movie as '(un)believeable' even if its about intergalactic battles in deep space (compare, for instance, the believability of Star Wars v. the Empire Strikes Back :-). If we are to allow such epistemological freedom to language then we should allow such a freedom to music / pictorial art. Can we assign truth / falsity to a fire alarm in the context of an office block? If there is actually a fire then the alarm is, in a sense, making a true statement, and if not then, in a sense, it is lying (ie a fire alarm is a truth tracker). Now imagine that the fire alarm, instead of just ringing, played, eg, the theme tune to 'The Simpsons'. Suddenly we have music communicating facts to us about the real world, not because of any thing inherent in music per se, or to this piece of music in particular, but purely to do with the context that that music is placed in. Obviously a similar argument can be made for pictorial art (eg the use of a print of the Mona Lisa to tell us that this isn't the mens room). However, one of the interesting things about linguistic fiction is that it can still tell us things about the real world without ever resorting to expressing those things directly. Issues such as allegory and metaphor present a real problem to contemporary linguistics for precisely this reason - semantics since Frege has been so involved with unifying itself with syntax that any attempt to even consider meta-semantics has been lost. But this presents the paradoxical conclusion that although not one sentence in a novel can sensibly be assigned truth or falsity, the novel as a whole can (or can at least provoke agreement/disagreement with the (meta/allegorical/metaphorical)-meaning). And so again back to music and pictorial art. Just because: > [t]he composer cannot encode his thoughts and feelings in musical syntax this does not imply that: > therefore, even though there is a sharing, there is no communication [2] Just because I cannot assign truth/falsity to any particular note or phrase in the music, this does not mean that the piece of music as a whole is unable to communicate. I guess this raises questions about the shift in responsibility between the communicator snd their audience when the type of communication shifts from testimonial to metaphorical, but to argue that non-testimonial communication is not actually communication at all because of this shift is not something I'd accept easily. jon ewing. ================= [1] James Harbeck [2] Alain Mayrand __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 18:28:00 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA26791 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA27990 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA05686 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA05672 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (eastnet.educ.ecu.edu [150.216.8.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA32604 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA478 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:34:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 14:35:36 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19971211193438703.AAA478@[150.216.15.103]> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O re: >I am having difficulty with the following remarks by GWS Bailey. > >>--A separate point, and perhaps my real one: there are good reasons to >interpret ambigous meaning[s?]as ambigous communication. One then takes >seriou[s]ly the possibility of truth-claims in an art-work, to name such >areason.< This was not a remark by GWS Bailey. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 18:23:45 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA24749 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:23:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA10465 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:23:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA08627 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:13:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA08617 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:13:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from graf.cc.emory.edu (graf.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.44]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA03263 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:12:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mverhae.resnet.emory.edu (GA-j26.resnet.emory.edu [170.140.88.218]) by graf.cc.emory.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9-950630.01osg-itd.null) with SMTP id PAA08223; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:07:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971211151339.006aff30@pop3.service.emory.edu> X-Sender: mverhae@pop3.service.emory.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:13:39 -0500 To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey), From: Marcus Verhaegh Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication In-Reply-To: <19971211161911437.AAA177@[150.216.15.103]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Marcus Verhaegh Status: O Me: >I will certainly allow that object's ambiguity of meaning can be of value >in other ways--such as providing content whose contemplation enlivens the >viewer's mental life, to speak in broadly Kantian terms. But such enlivenment need not involve communication, at least in the sense of having and recognizing intentions. Bailey: > Given my primary concern with the relevance of all this to the critique >of the visual arts as a communication medium, this response seems to me >to be a patronizing defense of obscurity. This response is usually put >to me this way: "ambiguous or vague content is very stimulating" - which >in context I take to mean, 'stimulates viewers to think." This assumes >that the target audience is such that it cannot be provoked to think more >deeply and critically and effectively by communication that aims to be as >clear as possible. Really, is the audience then mentally inferior to >those who, while they can express their thoughts clearly, choose not to >do so as the only way to stimulate those less adept to think of certain >things? My comment was sort of a throw-away, but if you want to take issue with it, fine. First of all, to say that ambiguity of meaning can provide content which can in turn stimulate viewers in ways that enlivens their mental lives need not involve any kind of patronizing attitude. Given that I was not talking about specifically communicative stimulation, you are attacking a straw man, not what I wrote. I did not assume the artist would try to stimulate the viewer to think of truth-claims the artist could directly express; or even that the artist was necessarily interested in getting the viewer to think of certain truth-claims. The artist might, for example, instead by involved in provide a mean by which one’s powers of interpretation are enhanced. Take a photograph of a broken toy on a suburban lawn with a leafless white tree. It might suggest a variety of meanings: it is about white trash families, lost childhood, American attitudes toward childrearing, ambivalence toward the natural, the relation of the natural and childhood, the relation of capitalism and play, etc., etc. The point may not be to communicate truths on any of these subjects, which need not even really be considered by the artist; the point may instead by simply to get the viewer to have a "free play of the imagination" in considering possible meanings, and thereby enhance the viewer's interpretive powers. Obviously non-art objects could operate in the same way, but certain images are more stimulating in this regard than others; the artist need only have a sense of what works in this way. Perhaps this can be granted by the gods, but I would say that having such a sense also involves having a sense of the way an image can powerfully suggest a variety of meanings. If one has such a sense and fashions an image according to it, I would call that using ambiguity of meaning. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 19:24:55 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA22876 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA09957 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA12277 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:40:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA12268 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (eastnet.educ.ecu.edu [150.216.8.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA07000 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:38:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA44 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:38:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 16:39:36 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19971211213847953.AAA44@[150.216.15.103]> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O re: > I did not assume the artist would try to >stimulate the viewer to think of truth-claims the artist could directly >express; or even that the artist was necessarily interested in getting the >viewer to think of certain truth-claims. The artist might, for example, >instead by involved in providing a means by which one's powers of >interpretation are enhanced. Take a photograph of a broken toy on a >suburban lawn with a leafless white tree. It might suggest a variety of >meanings: it is about white trash families, lost childhood, American >attitudes toward childrearing, ambivalence toward the natural, the relation >of the natural and childhood, the relation of capitalism and play, etc., >etc. I especially like the "etc." >The point may not be to communicate truths on any of these subjects, >which need not even really be considered by the artist; the point may >instead by simply to get the viewer to have a "free play of the >imagination" in considering possible meanings, and thereby enhance the >viewer's interpretive powers. Enhancing the viewer's ability to project meanings into something that does not itself carry such meanings is not enhancing the viewer's interpretive powers. It is enhancing the viewer's power to pretend that something has meanings it does not have. Well, what's wrong with enhancing people's power to pretend things have meanings they don't have? People's power to do this already is quite extraordinary - it wants no enhancing. People do it all the time with events in everyday life, confusing doing this with discovering what actually is happening. People do this with art, confusing this with discovering what a work means. People should be encouraged to discover what something really is, not to project pretended interpretations into things. I sometimes call this The Remedial Theory of Art. Art exist to get people who lack imagination, who cannot, for example, imagine an indefinite variety of interpretations for any old isolated blade of grass, to develop some power of imagination. The assumption being that it is good to get people to project imaginary meanings into things. (Good because it gives them pleasure?) In this vein ("using "say" loosely) art has nothing to say to people who do not need their powers of imagination improved, or who do not need to focus on works of art to exercise these powers. That is, most people. But what if I am wrong in saying "most people?" What if the ability most people have to project imagined interpretations onto the events of real life does not carry over to art. What if, when most people view art, they find it difficult to produce imaginary interpretations of what they see, even though they do this automatically in everyday life? If so, I still find that I do not see the value in getting them to do this, in contrast with the value of having them try to understand what the work actually is (and is doing). >Obviously non-art objects could operate in >the same way, but certain images are more stimulating in this regard than >others; Since I and anyone else can provide you with indefinitely many interpretations of any work of art or anything else, and since some of us can even make a sub-set of these sound reasonable, I am not sure how to read "more stimulating." (And surely the degree to which something is stimulating in this sense is specific to who is viewing it.) The situations in which viewers usually describe images as stimulating are situations in which viewers assume that the image contains a profound meaning that they are not getting. They find searching for what they believe to be there stimulating. If the same viewers are told, "no, the whole point is to stimulate you to find whatever meanings you can imagine in the work, not one of the meanings already there," I submit that such viewers would justifiably feel duped. From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 18:28:14 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA26915 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA15308 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA10184 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA10174 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id PAA00932 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:43:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:43:48 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4447693@isis.reed.edu> Date: 11 Dec 97 12:43:48 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Aesthetics: Mistaken attribution To: aesthetics@indiana.edu, pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O I attributed certain remarks about 'ambiguous communication' to GWS Bailey, who, it turns out, was not the author of them. Sorry for the mistake, and apologies to GWS. Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 19:26:58 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA23877 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:26:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA30651 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:26:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA11938 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA11925 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:33:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk (hermes.ex.ac.uk [144.173.6.14]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA05905 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from dialup07 [144.173.6.207] by hermes via SMTP (VAA10263); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:29:39 GMT From: Claire Launchbury To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Postmodernism Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:34:14 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Priority: NORMAL X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.1.1 Build (17) X-Authentication: IMSP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Claire Launchbury Status: O I wonder if anyone can help me. I have to deliver a seminar presentation about post-modernist aesthetics and music, and then write an essay. If anyone has anything to suggest I'd be very grateful. Claire Launchbury ---------------------- Claire Launchbury University of Exeter 26 Culverland Road EX4 6JJ (01392) 273568 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 21:27:26 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA13684 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA06605 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA20017 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA20002 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:57:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA19125 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA08519; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:55:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:55:40 -0800 (PST) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Postmodernism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O It's far too late for postmodernism; besides it never really existed except as a "movement" to create positions in academia... ;-) { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace < > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < > sequacious ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace < > hypermodern ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace < > imagery online ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace < Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html -- On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Claire Launchbury wrote: > I wonder if anyone can help me. I have to deliver a seminar > presentation about post-modernist aesthetics and music, and > then write an essay. If anyone has anything to suggest I'd > be very grateful. > Claire Launchbury > > ---------------------- > Claire Launchbury > University of Exeter > > 26 Culverland Road > EX4 6JJ > (01392) 273568 > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 21:52:34 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA23962 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA25855 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA21737 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:53:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA21730 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id TAA16497 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL9-ASYNC14.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AB30099; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:52:56 -0500 Message-Id: <34908A26.58B2DA8F@nyu.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:49:42 -0500 From: Avram Schlesinger Organization: New York University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: { brad brace } Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Postmodernism References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Avram Schlesinger Status: O { brad brace } wrote: > It's far too late for postmodernism; besides it never really existed > except as a "movement" to create positions in academia... ;-) I am not sure....Maybe it existed so that we could, "construct" positions in academia... Avram Schlesinger > { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp > > The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace < > > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < > > sequacious ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace < > > hypermodern ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace < > > imagery online ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace < > > Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc > Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg > Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html > > -- > > On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Claire Launchbury wrote: > > > I wonder if anyone can help me. I have to deliver a seminar > > presentation about post-modernist aesthetics and music, and > > then write an essay. If anyone has anything to suggest I'd > > be very grateful. > > Claire Launchbury > > > > ---------------------- > > Claire Launchbury > > University of Exeter > > > > 26 Culverland Road > > EX4 6JJ > > (01392) 273568 > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 21:48:03 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA22208 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:48:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA25690 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:48:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA22427 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA22420 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from graf.cc.emory.edu (graf.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.44]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA13296 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mverhae.resnet.emory.edu (GA-j26.resnet.emory.edu [170.140.88.218]) by graf.cc.emory.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9-950630.01osg-itd.null) with SMTP id UAA03411; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:11:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971211201715.00697318@pop3.service.emory.edu> X-Sender: mverhae@pop3.service.emory.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:17:15 -0500 To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey), From: Marcus Verhaegh Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication In-Reply-To: <19971211213847953.AAA44@[150.216.15.103]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Marcus Verhaegh Status: O >Enhancing the viewer's ability to project meanings into something that >does not itself carry such meanings is not enhancing the viewer's >interpretive powers. It is enhancing the viewer's power to pretend that >something has meanings it does not have. Enchaning the viewers ability to project meaning on to something is not equivalent to enchaning their interpretative powers, yes; but the first can lead to the second in many cases. Hypothetical interpretation involves pretending; but this does not mean it can only help one get better at pretending. This is perhaps unclear in my last email, but "more stimulating" needs to be understood not merely in terms of allowing one to construe more interpretations. What will tend to be stimulating or exciting is not merely the quantity of the interpretations stimulated, but also 1) their bearing on features of being in the world which are judged important for oneself and one's community 2) their sense of plausibility relative to the interpreted object. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 11 22:49:48 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id WAA16161 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:49:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA22124 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:49:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA23423 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA23416 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from graf.cc.emory.edu (graf.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.44]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA11762 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mverhae.resnet.emory.edu (GA-j26.resnet.emory.edu [170.140.88.218]) by graf.cc.emory.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9-950630.01osg-itd.null) with SMTP id UAA08183; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:52:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971211205759.00697318@pop3.service.emory.edu> X-Sender: mverhae@pop3.service.emory.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:57:59 -0500 To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul), aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Marcus Verhaegh Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication In-Reply-To: <4443482@isis.reed.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Marcus Verhaegh Status: O Your points seems to be that ambigous communication can be a bad thing, and that it can be found in a lot of places. Granted; but this says nothing about my point that it can be of value under certain conditions. At 01:09 AM 12/11/97 PST, Robert Paul wrote: >I am having difficulty with the following remarks by GWS Bailey. > >>--A separate point, and perhaps my real one: there are good reasons to >interpret ambigous meaning[s?]as ambigous communication. One then takes >seriou[s]ly the possibility of truth-claims in an art-work, to name such >areason.< > >Plain, old-fashioned ambiguity can be found in the sentence, 'George told Bill >he didn't have to show him his ticket because he worked there.' > >Here, of course, the possibility that both pronouns could refer equally well to >George or to Bill renders the sentence opaque to anyone who does not know to >which of them the speaker meant to refer. Absolutely nothing is 'communicated' >(in any of the senses of 'communicate' with which I'm familiar) to someone who >does not know the speaker's intentions. This particular utterance does not give >the unguided hearer to understand anything; a fortiori it does not give the >unguided hearer to understand a multiplicity of things. > >Surely, few think that the warning 'Do Not Eat' which is found on the little >packets of silica gel that are packed with some items to absorb moisture is an >exhortation to fast; but as there are countless ways in which inscriptions and >utterances might be understood (or misunderstood), it is not beyond belief that >someday someone's life might be changed by so taking it. But that someone might >see in this simple warning a 'divine message' to refrain from taking >nourishment says nothing about the benefits of ambiguity as a means of >communicating--although it perhaps says something about how human beings can >misread a text. > >The first thing that comes to mind when I think of 'ambiguous communication' is >what the witches tell Macbeth. > >All good wishes, > >Robert Paul >robert.paul@reed.edu >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 00:41:39 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id AAA24539 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA05911 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:41:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA26057 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:41:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA26050 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id WAA09857 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:40:50 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4452702@isis.reed.edu> Date: 11 Dec 97 19:40:49 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication To: mverhae@emory.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O Marcus Verhaegh writes: >Your points seems to be that ambigous communication can be a bad thing, and that it can be found in a lot of places. Granted; but this says nothing about my point that it can be of value under certain conditions.< I infer from his earlier remarks that Marcus believes that where there is ambiguity there are multiple meanings. This needs to be argued for. The most that one can infer from an ambiguous utterance (remark, sentence, word, diagram, etc.) is that it has multiple *possible* meanings, no one of them is fixed. It frequently happens that more than one thing is expressed by an utterance (&c.), e.g., I might reply 'I'm Robert Paul,' to the question 'Is Robert Paul here?' That I am both telling the questioner who I am and indicating my presence does not make what I say ambiguous. So utterances can express ('communicate') more than one thing without being in any way opaque. Perhaps Marcus has confused ambiguity with multiplicity of meaning. I see no argument yet for the claim that genuinely ambiguous utterances (&c.) communicate anything whatsoever, for they are, to the hearer, opaque. My argument is not that ambiguous communication is 'a bad thing,' but that it is impossible. Cartoon in The New Yorker for this week: First panel--Man apparently drowning to Collie on shore: 'Lassie, get help!' Next panel--Lassie is depicted lying on a psychiatrist's couch. All good wishes, Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 01:39:59 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id BAA10463 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA01659 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id AAA28233 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:05:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id AAA28211 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:05:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from graf.cc.emory.edu (graf.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.44]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA01470 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mverhae.resnet.emory.edu (GA-j26.resnet.emory.edu [170.140.88.218]) by graf.cc.emory.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9-950630.01osg-itd.null) with SMTP id XAA06081; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:59:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971212000458.00694fac@pop3.service.emory.edu> X-Sender: mverhae@pop3.service.emory.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:04:58 -0500 To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul), aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Marcus Verhaegh Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication In-Reply-To: <4452702@isis.reed.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Marcus Verhaegh Status: O >I infer from his earlier remarks that Marcus believes that where there is >ambiguity there are multiple meanings. This needs to be argued for. The most >that one can infer from an ambiguous utterance (remark, sentence, word, >diagram, etc.) is that it has multiple *possible* meanings, no one of them is >fixed. I do not believe that where there is ambiguity there are multiple "actual" meanings. I am in happy to think of ambiguity as involving multiple possible meanings. I am not sure what the basis for your inference was. Though god knows I am not particularly careful in my postings, so it would be good to know have if actually I slipped up. The only thing I can think of is that it might seem like I was conflating multivocity with ambiguity when I wrote of: --One last function of ambiguity worth mentioning: Expression of a great deal of information with only a little (the compression encoding theory of art). This was a complete throwaway comment, and I hope not the basis for your inference. Nor do I think it involves a conflation of the concepts of multivocity and ambiguity: since I do not take "expression" to necessarily involve intention, and I do not know how to distinguish possible from actual meanings in cases where intention does not in fact come into play, ambiguity = multivocity in those cases in my view. >I see no argument yet for the claim that genuinely ambiguous utterances (&c.) >communicate anything whatsoever, for they are, to the hearer, opaque. My >argument is not that ambiguous communication is 'a bad thing,' but that it is >impossible. I haven't argued that "genuienly" ambiguous utterances communicate anything, if by a "genuienly" ambiguous utterance you mean an utterance where one can find no reason whatsoever to pick (at least) one possible meaning of the utterance as the intended one(s), and so doesn't. But in general we are faced with a situation where an utterance might mean one thing, might mean another, but we have reason to pick one over the other. (Perhaps(?) I should mention that I think that the fact that one possible meaning is taken to involve a true assertion, while the other is not, is a fact than can serve as a good reason for believing the first is more likely to be the intended one than the second. [Such a belief about interpretation is basically what Gadamer is talking about with "a hermeneutics of good will." I think Davidson says something similar about a "principle of charity" in interpretation.] --"Can" so serve, I would emphasize.) I would term such communication ambiguous in cases when we have good reason to believe we might be wrong about our "choice," even if we were in fact correct. It is a matter of degree at issue here, I think; ambiguity is itself ambiguous. More generally, I would say: ambiguous communication = communication involving ambiguous _means_ of communication. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 01:39:54 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id BAA10438 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:39:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA31166 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:39:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id AAA28609 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:21:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id AAA28602 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:21:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from gabriel.cc.emory.edu (gabriel.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.30]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA14240 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mverhae.resnet.emory.edu (GA-j26.resnet.emory.edu [170.140.88.218]) by gabriel.cc.emory.edu (8.7.3/8.6.9-950630.01osg-itd.null) with SMTP id AAA25210; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:22:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971212002128.006a8984@pop3.service.emory.edu> X-Sender: mverhae@pop3.service.emory.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:21:28 -0500 To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey), From: Marcus Verhaegh Subject: Aesthetics: Art, Communication, & Tradition In-Reply-To: <19971211161911437.AAA177@[150.216.15.103]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id AAA28603 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Marcus Verhaegh Status: O 1. Bailey: >I think what follows is an argument for the use of painting, a medium >which usually cannot avoid a degree of ambiguity, to achieve the >described goals. I do not see it as a defense of the use of ambiguity as >such. except perhaps where you talk about tradition being sustained by a >flawed text. That is, in general the virtues you attribute to the >painting you describe are not virtues it has because it is ambiguous, but >are virtues it would have to the extent that it had a determinate meaning >content. I agree with your analysis as regards my example—i.e., "what follows"—though not as regards my general claim about the use of ambiguity to achieve the "goals" in question. "[W]here I talk about tradition being sustained by a flawed text" is, I should emphasize, the centerpiece of my example. Ambiguity is precisely important for traditions in that it keeps them sustainable in a variety of contexts; although I would agree that too much ambiguity can keep a text as functioning in any context as part of a valuable tradition. 2. Bailey argues that _The School of Athens_ merely illustrates the information which I "find" in it, but that it makes no sense to speak of actually finding these truths therein. I agree that it illustrates the information; but I also think it makes sense to interpret the painting as intended to communicate the truths illustrated. There is admittedly something a bit perplexing about speaking of the value of communicating truths the viewer already knows, or at least "almost" already knows. (One thinks of the _Meno_). But this does not keep us from correctly terming such communication to be "communication." If I say the sky is blue, I will likely still be communicating a meaning-intention. The same can hold in saying that Plato and Aristotle stand in a particular kind of opposition. Moreover, what we learn from such a statement need not only be its truth, but can also be the fact that this truth is one which is thought worth exploring by the artist and, more importantly, others who value his work—where one might have reason to care what these others think. Also, due to such an appeal to authority, or merely in prompting consideration of a truth known "in the back of one’s mind," one can get the viewer to move from one to the other of the two sense of "know" described by Aristotle. [ Nicomachean Ethics, 1146b32-4] I.e., the viewer might be moved from "knowing" but not applying that knowledge, to true knowing—which does involve application. (Please keep in mind that I am not claiming such the fact of such communication occurring in itself constitutes aesthetic or artistic value, or that all aesthetically or artistically valuable objects involve it. One does need to distinguish advertising from art.) 3. Me: >These truth-claims function in ways they might not if merely written down. >Their enshrinment in fresco shows that they are taken seriously by various >authorities one might trust. Bailey: >Are you endorsing the value of appeals to authority? Shouldn't people >distrust such appeals[?] Yes, I am endorsing the value of some appeals to authority. For instance, if someone I take to be wise, living or dead, suggests a certain idea or line of thought is worth considering, I will count that as a good though not overriding reason to consider it. Hence I do not think people should necessarily distrust appeals to authorities whom they trust on the matter at hand. 4. Bailey: >Someone's using such devices to condition viewers to valorize things he >or she asserts as true is not a good thing. I was not suggesting any kind of conditioning, but only avenues by which appeals to authority can function. 5. Bailey: >Your reference to tradition bothers me because traditions qua traditions >may be good or bad. If there is a good reason to continue something >traditional, then for that reason we should continue what has become a >tradition. If we have to valorize a tradition to ensure its survival, >this is one sign that it is a tradition that ought not to survive. I think we might be using "valorize" in different ways. Also, I did not write of the valorization of a tradition, but of truth-claims. I mean by this that one provides a reason for a viewer to consider a truth-claim in virtue of its "enshrinement" in an object valued by an authority she trusts. The making-known of this valuing constitutes the valorization. To say that we should continue something traditional only if there is a good reason to do so is any empty claim. The fact that it is traditional can count as such a reason—I take it this was something at least close to what you wished to deny? 6. Bailey: >Are you saying that in order to avoid having people reject a tradition >because the text that sustains it is found to contain errors, we should >make it too ambiguous to allow the identification of error? No, I am saying that it can be valuable for a sustaining text to be ambiguous enough so that we can make a new, credible interpretation of it as communicating a truth when the old interpretation was found to have it communicating an un-truth. *** I disagree with much else you say, even as I find it the expression of valuable tradition…. but I will stop here. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 02:49:25 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id CAA22558 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:49:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA01194 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:49:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA29729 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA29721 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:06:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id BAA06599 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:05:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL7-3-ASYNC-12.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA24743; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:05:04 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:48:59 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: FW: Re: Aesthetics: Expression et.al Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O Might I ask what is the nature of the message art is to communicated-- and where and when did this notion that art was a language form capable of transmitting information arise. Also might this not be thought out better along synchronic lines than diachronic ones? __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 02:45:28 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id CAA21936 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA18159 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA29751 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:06:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA29732 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:06:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id BAA00496 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:05:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL7-3-ASYNC-12.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA15325; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:05:10 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971211151339.006aff30@pop3.service.emory.edu> References: <19971211161911437.AAA177@[150.216.15.103]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:00:28 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O First of all, to say that ambiguity of meaning can provide content >which can in turn stimulate viewers in ways that enlivens their mental >lives need not involve any kind of patronizing attitude. By most recent though not the most recent theorizing all meaning is ambiguious and is the product of interpertation, it is not the ambiguity that supplies content but the enlivened mind. Meaning after all does not exist in things but is a construct attributed to them, when this attribute becomes common enough one can say they signify. Given this belief on my part significant parts of this thread seem incomprehesible in their positivism and essentialism. Once again objects do not supply meaning they only stimulate our ability to differentiate between the various possible meanings we have learned to attribute or synthesize within certain situations. Ambiguity is not of meaning but the inability to decisively attribute a signified to a signifier. So come on guys if you can't say what you mean atleast reflect uppon your/ our situation so as not to say only what can grammatically be said. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 02:45:15 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id CAA21904 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:45:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA02654 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:45:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA00102 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:22:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA00092 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:22:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id BAA06577 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:21:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL7-3-ASYNC-12.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA32492; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:21:49 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971211201715.00697318@pop3.service.emory.edu> References: <19971211213847953.AAA44@[150.216.15.103]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:19:09 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O >Enchaning the viewers ability to project meaning on to something is not >equivalent to enchaning their interpretative powers, yes; but the first >can lead to the second in many cases. Now you have entered into a realm where you must differentiate between meaning, content and understanding. For itis the potential meanings of the work that are interperted by the viewer in accord with their ability, experience and consitioning in orde thathey may genrate a proposition concerning the works contents-- this is then subject to further reflection and internalized producing a degree of understanding-- sometimes one is aware that their understanding does not fix the work in question but just some aspect of it -- that aspect that they have focused upon -- differing aspects will at times producie conflicting conclusions sometinmes these differences make a work more interesting at at others just muddled -- why because sometimes the work iss, banality, familiar, to accessible or bandly realized. . __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 02:45:15 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id CAA21910 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA30374 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:45:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA00188 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:27:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA00180 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:27:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id BAA10558 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:26:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL7-3-ASYNC-12.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA01040; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:26:25 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4452702@isis.reed.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:23:48 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O > >I see no argument yet for the claim that genuinely ambiguous utterances (&c.) >communicate anything whatsoever, for they are, to the hearer, opaque. My >argument is not that ambiguous communication is 'a bad thing,' but that it is >impossible. > If percieved and understood an ambiguous utterance communicates its ambiguousness and potential confusion on the part of the one who utters it. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 02:47:28 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id CAA22262 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA23638 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA00332 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:34:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA00325 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:34:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id BAA23275 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:33:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL7-3-ASYNC-12.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA07344; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:33:20 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971212000458.00694fac@pop3.service.emory.edu> References: <4452702@isis.reed.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:30:44 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O >But in general we are faced with a situation where an utterance might mean >one thing, might mean another, but we have reason to pick one over the >other. (Perhaps(?) I should mention that I think that the fact that one >possible meaning is taken to involve a true assertion, while the other is >not, is a fact than can serve as a good reason for believing the first is >more likely to be the intended one than the second. [Such a belief about >interpretation is basically what Gadamer is talking about with "a >hermeneutics of good will." I think Davidson says something similar about >a "principle of charity" in interpretation.] --"Can" so serve, I would >emphasize.) I would term such communication ambiguous in cases when we >have good reason to believe we might be wrong about our "choice," even if >we were in fact correct. It is a matter of degree at issue here, I think; >ambiguity is itself ambiguous. > I do believe that this thread could use a general course in linguistics, interpertation is the act of decoding signs and making judgements concerning the resulting data. These signs iclude not only the signifiers but also their order and context. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 03:41:13 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id DAA28535 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA09461 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id CAA00895 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:03:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id CAA00877 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id CAA25916 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:02:11 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4454160@isis.reed.edu> Date: 11 Dec 97 23:02:11 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O >If percieved and understood an ambiguous utterance communicates its ambiguousness and potential confusion on the part of the one who utters it.< Well, there's the rub, of course. Although I don't know what it means to 'perceive an utterance,' whether it *is* possible to 'understand' a prima facie ambiguous utterance (for short: one that one cannot disambiguate on one's own) is just what is at issue. Certainly one might recognize something as a sentence in a natural language without knowing what its utterer meant by it, or meant to convey ('communicate') by it. E.g., 'I saw the lion' may be a report of what one saw at the zoo, or it may be a report by a magician's assistant of what she does during a magic show in which the illusion that a lion is being sawed in half is presented. But there need be no confusion on the part of the utterer here at all; hence, ambiguity of utterance does not entail confusion on the part of the utterer. In short, I can say something that is ambiguous to you without being in the least confused about what I mean. (See the 'Lassie' cartoon description in my last post.) All good wishes, Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 03:39:23 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id DAA28339 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:39:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA07561 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:39:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id CAA00991 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id CAA00982 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:08:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id CAA02162 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:07:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:07:52 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4454199@isis.reed.edu> Date: 11 Dec 97 23:07:52 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication To: ostrow@is2.nyu.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O >I think Davidson says something similar about a "principle of charity" in interpretation.< That a 'principle of charity' plays a role in how speakers and hearers tacitly conspire to convey and to grasp meaning is something owed to Paul Grice, not to Donald Davidson. Indeed, Grice's works on meaning are particularly relevant to this entire discussion. Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 12:05:02 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA15551 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA03975 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA14619 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA14612 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:34:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.52.6]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id JAA04876 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:33:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by corn.cso.niu.edu id AA11874 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for "ASA E-list" ); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:33:53 -0600 Message-Id: <199712121433.AA11874@corn.cso.niu.edu> From: "William Tolhurst" To: "ASA E-list" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 08:38:25 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.95a For OS/2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Aesthetics: finals Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "William Tolhurst" Status: O On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:14:00 -0600 (CST), James R Hamilton wrote: >Reflections on the recent spate of postings: Some of you are done with >your finals. Some of you are avoiding grading finals. ARRRRGGGHHHH (or >words to that effect). WT: All of you are helping others avoid grading finals. William Tolhurst Email: tolhurst@niu.edu Department of Philosophy Phone: 815/753-6411 Northern Illinois University Fax: 815/753-6302 DeKalb, IL 60115 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 12:09:44 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA18746 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:09:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA30526 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id IAA12082 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:56:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id IAA12069 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:56:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (eastnet.educ.ecu.edu [150.216.8.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA00920 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA55 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:55:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Postmodernism Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 08:56:03 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19971212135512953.AAA55@[150.216.15.103]> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O re: > > >{ brad brace } wrote: > >> It's far too late for postmodernism; besides it never really existed >> except as a "movement" to create positions in academia... ;-) > >I am not sure....Maybe it existed so that we could, "construct" >positions in academia... > Nah, that's what Modernism was all about. Postmodernism is about deconstructing academic positions. - George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 15:55:04 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA07392 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:55:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA23964 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA24601 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA24591 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:34:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA01996 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.40 (srq00.netline.net [205.160.7.40]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA19423 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:21:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34913D66.3A1D@netline.net> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:34:54 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O GE: >The brain utilizes shared mechanisms for both, GB: >Given the privacy of the mental, I do not see how this could be >established, even if true. That is because you clearly have no knowledge of the issue. You are not expected to, but until you do have at least an elementary understanding it would be appreciated if you avoided sharing that ignorance. This idea comes from Kosslyn and Shepard, not me. You might consider that there is something to the life’s work of the head of the Psych department at Harvard (SK) and a winner of the highest science honor in the nation (RS) before you attempt to refute it with off the cuff intuitions. Your inability to comprehend the fact isn’t significantly relevant to its verity. GE: >meaning that in some >respects they are essentially the same. GB: >I use the same mechanism for pumping gas and water, meaning in some = >respects they are essentially the same. What respect? In that they = >are both capable to being pumped by the same pump? Ah, but this is = >not a respect in which water and gas are essentially the same; = >perhaps they are not "essentially" the same in any respect. Again, an introductory level understanding of the issue would rescue us from such inappropriate analogies. GE __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 12:49:16 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA11815 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA23951 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA15509 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:54:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA15502 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (eastnet.educ.ecu.edu [150.216.8.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA00251 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:53:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA83 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:53:18 -0500 Subject: Aesthetics: Ambiguity Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 09:54:09 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19971212145315078.AAA83@[150.216.15.103]> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O re Robert's: >I infer from his earlier remarks that Marcus believes that where there is >ambiguity there are multiple meanings. This needs to be argued for. I suspect you are attributing to Marcus what George (that's me) said, though perhaps Marcus also said this. My concern here is with the notion of ambiguity as a virtue in art. In this context, my first encounter with ambiguity being treated as a virtue was in poetry. It was pointed out to me that a poem had several distinct, coherent interpretations, each equally well supported by the text. It was claimed that this, which was referred to as the different levels of meaning of the poem, was not only intentional, but masterful, in that it was a difficult thing to accomplish, etc. Success was grounds for praising the poet, implying that having multiple meanings was a good thing. One thing that made the different meanings possible was the ambiguous use terms and sentences; that is, using terms and sentences in a way that allowed us to say that they might mean this or they might mean that. However, since in this case the ambiguity was presumed to be for the sake of presenting each of the alternatives as a meaning of the work (rather than for the sake of avoiding being pinned down, as in political talk, or merely as matter of poor communication), the assumption was that the ambiguous elements in the work were intended to mean each of the things that they might mean. >From this it was concluded that they did mean each of the things that they might mean. (Call this an example of how to derive "does" from "might" in the world or art!) Later I encountered this same sense of ambiguity being applied to visual art, as when I was told that one of a work's virtues what that (given the facts about its context of creation, etc.) it could be seen as depicting a King intolerant of infidelity and a Kind inviting infidelity. Ambiguity is problematic in much communication because we need to act on what is being communicated, and thus need to rule out what is not intended. Presumably, ambiguity can be a virtue in art that does not exist for so-called "practical" ends, but for the sake of contemplating for the aesthetic value of each of the alternatives a work presents through its use of ambiguity, and of the whole that does this. "Might mean p or q" is meaningful. It communicates "might mean p or q." This shows that ambiguous communication is not impossible. Suppose the order "have the private do it" is ambiguous because there are two privates. Knowing that one was told to have one or the other of two people do something, but none of the other 357 soldiers who might have been ordered to do it, none of whom are privates, is a case of communicating, just not an entirely satisfactory one. This shows that ambiguous utterances (utterances that might mean this or might mean that) can communicate something: they can communicate "either this or that." - George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 12:49:09 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA11755 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:49:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA00642 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:49:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA16015 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:04:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA15992 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:04:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (schools.eastnet.ecu.edu [150.216.8.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA06071 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA80 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:03:19 -0500 Subject: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 10:04:09 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: "aesthetics" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19971212150318562.AAA80@[150.216.15.103]> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O (Ignore the "='s' signs and the ends of the lines below - they got added when a server bounced the e-mail back to me and I had to resend it.) Re. Glenn English's: >On Thursday 12/11, George Bailey wrote: > >>(Or maybe it just works heuristically, as do the diagrams >>mentioned by another contributor to this forum.) > > >Is there some evidence to support such a position? Perhaps we are using "heuristically" differently. I do not see what I = have been saying as being at odds with what you claim. And I make no = claims to understand how the brain processesses input from the = observation of diagrams. > >GB: >>Some people tell me that Escher's prints crystallize their understanding >>of five-dimensional space. I am skeptical that the feeling they get = really >>constitutes a better grasp of five-dimensional space, but hey, maybe they >>are right. > > >Yes, I think they are. Many great discoveries came from a dream or >daydream of an image that opened the percipient up to a new way of >thinking about a problem. I believe this was the case for Einstein and >his theory of relativity. Perhaps someone on the list recalls the = specifics >of his reported vision? I find it a big leap from Escher's work and the notion of 5-D space = to Einstein's theory of relativity. As for the claim that dreams are = involved in creating new theories in some way not yet understood, = that seems reasonable, though I do not think that anyone has any real = idea of how this works. > >Roger Shepard (winner of The National Medal of Science) has written >in his Escher inspired book _ Mind Sights _ that our use of pictorial >imagination as a means of gaining understanding is an essential part >of our genetically inherited makeup. I agree that mental imagery plays a role in "thought" where "thought" is understood broadly. How this all works is beyond me. Speaking = from the perspective of an armchair psychologist, I would even claim = to know that I use mental images in problem solving, and have done so = for as long as I can remember. Ah, but what kind of problems? Not problems like "is there a duty to = treat each person as an end, not merely as a means?" There are things = that lend themselves to being considered by entertaining mental = images, and things that do not. I do not know where the boundary is, = thout it is clear that some things fall well on one side or the = other. In Jr. High School (Middle School) mechanical drawing was = easier for me than for some students because I always could form a = mental image of what I was to draw before drawing it, whereas some = students had to follow the written instructions having no idea how it = would come out, with unpredictable results due to the difficulty of = understanding the instructions. I look at the drawing before = alteration, figured out how it ought to look by visualizing the = changes called for in the instructions, then drew it (the "it" in my = visual imagination), ignoring the instructions telling me how to go = about drawing it. This is to say, analogously, that there are things that visual works = of art (which are not ingredients in brain processes involving images = and mental sentences) can do qua visual objects that words cannot, and = vice-versa. But, to belabor the point, very many of the claims made = about the meaning content of specific 20th century visual works = attribute to these works semiotic characteristics they simply do not = have. These claims are not vindicated by agreeing that we can think = in images. >There is an important aspect of his and other=92s findings, that may go >to the root of the myriad confusions about mental and artistic imagery. I do not think it is reasonable to assume that "mental imagery" and = "artistic imagery" are sufficiently analogous to equate them as you = seem to do. We know zilch about mental imagery, when it comes right = down to it. The status of mental images as a subject of empirical = research is questionable. What we observe in others are behaviors = (reports of imagery, reactions to external stimuli, etc.). >The brain utilizes shared mechanisms for both, Given the privacy of the mental, I do not see how this could be established, even if true. >meaning that in some >respects they are essentially the same. I use the same mechanism for pumping gas and water, meaning in some = respects they are essentially the same. What respect? In that they = are both capable to being pumped by the same pump? Ah, but this is = not a respect in which water and gas are essentially the same; = perhaps they are not "essentially" the same in any respect. >This is part of why I see an >understanding of mental imagery as being of paramount importance >to an understanding of artistic imagery. > I would think that how things in the world can appear while being = perceived, and why they appear as they do, would be of first = importance to understanding artistic imagery. The significance of the = mental images we can create when not looking is less obvious, save in = the case of people who make the mistake of trying to create visual = art in their mind and then duplicating it on canvas. This works for = mechanical drawing, but often results in art that looks stiff and = contrived. The explanation for this that artists give me is that what = happens on the canvas has a life of its own and critical judgements = as to what to do next must be made in response to what on sees on the = canvas as one creates, not in response to what one see's in one's = mental image of what one wants the painting to look like. This does = not detract from the significance of mental images to thought, but it = does call into question the reasonableness of viewing visual art as = performing the same role in thinking as do mental images. George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 13:06:26 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA22295 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:06:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA07343 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:06:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA13255 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA13241 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA13667 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cbs (hamilton@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.4]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/mailhub+antispam+tar) with SMTP id IAA22216 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:14:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by cbs (SMI-8.6/1.34) id IAA07771; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:14:01 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:14:00 -0600 (CST) From: James R Hamilton X-Sender: hamilton@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu To: ASA E-list Subject: Aesthetics: finals Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James R Hamilton Status: O Reflections on the recent spate of postings: Some of you are done with your finals. Some of you are avoiding grading finals. ARRRRGGGHHHH (or words to that effect). James R. Hamilton, Head Department of Philosophy (913) 532-6758 Kansas State University hamilton@ksu.edu Manhattan, KS 66506 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 14:10:23 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA01975 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA31771 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA17429 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA17416 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from juliet.its.uwo.ca (juliet.its.uwo.ca [129.100.2.61]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA09124 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.100.154.155] by juliet.its.uwo.ca with SMTP id KAA07860; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:35:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:39:27 -0400 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: cheetham@julian.uwo.ca (Mark A. Cheetham) Subject: Aesthetics: Postmodernism & Spam Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cheetham@julian.uwo.ca (Mark A. Cheetham) Status: O I've been following this morning's "discussion" of PMism with some dismay. I agree that the term may be outmoded, and even that the period (if one adopts a temporal interpretation) may be past. But the Baroque is past, too: does that mean we can't discuss its characteristics with some intelligence? There is a lot to say about PMism, pro and con. There is a lot of good writing about it, though as with any other controversial topic, there is the dross too. But what has littered our screens lately is embarrasing. Does anyone agree that we should have a real discussion or none at all? Mark A. Cheetham Professor Department of Visual Arts John Labatt Visual Arts Centre The University of Western Ontario LONDON, ONTARIO, CANADA N6A 5B7 Tel: 519-661-3440 Fax: 519-661-2020 (office) / 519-434-6205 (home) EMail: cheetham@julian.uwo.ca __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 14:08:07 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA00394 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA11540 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:08:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA18023 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:47:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA17800 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:41:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from graf.cc.emory.edu (graf.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.44]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA24228 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:40:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mverhae.resnet.emory.edu (GA-j26.resnet.emory.edu [170.140.88.218]) by graf.cc.emory.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9-950630.01osg-itd.null) with SMTP id KAA00005; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:35:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971212104113.006b53d0@pop3.service.emory.edu> X-Sender: mverhae@pop3.service.emory.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:41:13 -0500 To: Ostrow/Kaneda , aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Marcus Verhaegh Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19971211151339.006aff30@pop3.service.emory.edu> <19971211161911437.AAA177@[150.216.15.103]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Marcus Verhaegh Status: O 1. I am still pretty sure Davidson talks about a "principle of chairty"; wasn't claiming the phrase was original to him, just thought his treatment of the idea was. Austen + Grice have been all but named in the postings, but perhaps they need to be more often. 2. >By most recent though not the most recent theorizing all meaning is >ambiguious and is the product of interpertation, it is not the ambiguity >that supplies content but the enlivened mind. Meaning after all does not >exist in things but is a construct attributed to them, when this attribute >becomes common enough one can say they signify. To say that ambiguity of meaning provides a certain kind of content is somewhat sloppy; what I should have said is "allows for." But I don't think it the enlivened mind alone which supplies the "content." Ambiguity is the product of interpretation? Ambiguity seems to me to either arise _in_ interpretation, which might be what you mean; or be a quality of a type, which is not what you mean. Meaning does not exist in things? Talk about positivism.... __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 14:07:29 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA29773 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:07:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA14076 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA17887 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA17878 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:43:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from juliet.its.uwo.ca (juliet.its.uwo.ca [129.100.2.61]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA22984 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:42:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from leon.uwo.ca by juliet.its.uwo.ca with SMTP id KAA09666; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:42:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:42:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712121542.KAA09666@juliet.its.uwo.ca> X-Sender: lsurette@julian.uwo.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Leon Surette Subject: Aesthetics: Why Pictures Can't Lie Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Leon Surette Status: O P. Y. Bailey's very interesting very Peircean post includes the following very interesting observation: "Pictures qua pictures do not assert (say, state) anything. They can be used to by people who are making assertions to assist in fixing (sometimes via depiction) what is being asserted in appropriate contexts, and we can infer infinitely many things from them, but, unlike declarative sentences, they lack the syntactic and semantic properties necessary to making assertions in their own right. Thus they cannot have truth value's in their own right." I must confess that though a casual reader of Peirce, and a great admirer of his I had not quite taken this important point. Surely it is equally true of the indexical potsherds which reveal, but do not assert, that the culture in question knew how to fire pots. But, then what about falsified evidence or doctored photographs? The latter are both indexical and iconic, but presumably do not assert, though they can be displayed as evidence to support assertions? It all seems very subtle -- and very important to the question of truth, error, and lies. Leon Surette Home: 519-681-7787 Dept. of English Fax: 519-661-3776 The University of Western Ontario Email: lsurette@julian.uwo.ca London, Ontario N6A 3K7 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 17:34:52 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA26064 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:34:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA19366 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA27304 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:45:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA27294 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:45:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (eastnet.educ.ecu.edu [150.216.8.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA21146 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:44:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA429 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:44:08 -0500 Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Art, Communication, & Tradition Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 14:44:59 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-ID: <19971212194407687.AAA429@[150.216.15.103]> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id OAA27298 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O Re. Marcus's: >2. Bailey argues that _The School of Athens_ merely illustrates the >information which I "find" in it, >but that it makes no sense to speak of >actually finding these truths therein. Technically, it makes sense (is not nonsense). It just that in this case the claim that the information is communicated by the painting is false. > I agree that it illustrates the >information; but I also think it makes sense to interpret the painting as >intended to communicate the truths illustrated. > Ah, here we come up against our failure, up to this point in this discussion, to emphasize the distinction between what the artist is doing (or trying to do) with a work and what the work itself does. The distinction is important, since we must know what a work does to know when it is being used by an artist to do something other than what it does in its own right. For the most part I have ignored this distinction to avoid changing the subject to whether the work's meaning was a direct or indirect logical function of the artist's (or anyone's) intentions (a Gricean view of meaning). I reject the view that the work's meaning is a logical function of the artist's intentions. What the artist is trying to do with her work (communicate such and such) is a logical function of her intentions, but whether a work communicates what it is intended to always is an open question. I can agree that the painting was intended to communicate what it illustrates, and that the artist intende! ! d it to communicate what it illustrates, but disagree that it is successful in communicating what it illustrates. One has to get what we are referring to as "what the artist intended the painting to communicate" from a source other than the work in order to understand what the work illustrates. If the artist is the source of this information, then she will have communicated what she intended to communicate, just not by means of the work. >Bailey: >Are you endorsing the value of appeals to authority? Shouldn't >people distrust such appeals[?] > >Yes, I am endorsing the value of some appeals to authority. For instance, >if someone I take to be wise, living or dead, suggests a certain idea or >line of thought is worth considering, I will count that as a good though >not overriding reason to consider it. Practically speaking, in many cases it is impossible not to rely on authority in narrowing down the range of alternatives to be considered. The less expertise we have in an area, the greater the extent to which we have no choice but to rely on others to provide us with a range of choices to consider, or to choose for us. But for all we know the alternatives they exclude are more likely to be true than those then include. For the same practical reasons, with many things we "must" provisionally accept them because we have no means of evaluating them ourselves and have to act on one or the other of the alternatives before us. I provisionally accept that what I put in my gas tank really is gas. The appeals to authority I object to assume that something's being endorsed by an authority provides some degree of justification for its being true. I maintain that the mere fact that something is endorsed by an authority (unless we beg-the-question in our definition of "an authorit! ! y") provides no degree of justification whatsoever for its being true. What provides justification for something's truth are the good reasons an authority has for endorsing it, if any. Where it is not practical to seek out and critique such reasons, we go along with the authority. But in matters of central significance to our lives, we should either check the reasons or maintain a healthy skepticism towards which of the alternatives available to us is true, even when we have to act on them. >>4. Bailey: Someone's using such devices to condition viewers to valorize >>things he or she asserts as true is not a good thing. > >I was not suggesting any kind of conditioning, but only avenues by which >appeals to authority can function. I think "conditioning" is a good term for the sort of functions you describe. Why I say this becomes clearer below. > > >To say that we should continue something traditional only if there is a >good reason to do so is any empty claim. The fact that it is traditional >can count as such a reason— The fact that something is traditional is no reason whatsoever for continuing it. It could only be a reason for continuing it if it was a reason for saying that its continuation was good (its discontinuation bad, etc.). The fact that an activity is traditional is no proof whatsoever that it is good. I assume that I do not have to cite a host of barbaric traditions to make this point. People who appeal to the fact that something is traditional to justify continuing it are people who have no reason for continuing the tradition. If they did have a reason, they would present it, not just assert "but its tradition!" >>6. Bailey: Are you saying that in order to avoid having people reject a >>tradition because the text that sustains it is found to contain errors, we should >>make it too ambiguous to allow the identification of error? > >No, I am saying that it can be valuable for a sustaining text to be >ambiguous enough so that we can make a new, credible interpretation of it >as communicating a truth when the old interpretation was found to have it >communicating an untruth. Let me get this straight. Assume T is a tradition there are good reasons for keeping going. Assume that in the past T was sustained, in part, because of the interpretation given to some text. Assume that this interpretation now is recognized to be false. Assume that the text is ambiguous enough for readers to give it another interpretation that will sustain T. Conclude that therefore, ambiguity (in this case) is good. This argument maintains that the past interpretation is false, and does not maintain that the current interpretation is true. It only maintains that the new interpretation, like the old, is useful in sustaining a good tradition. So the function (if not the intended purpose) of the past interpretation was to trick people into sustaining a tradition that it is assumed would not be sustained if they knew the truth. This device is a form of behavioral conditioning well understood by the self-anointed "leaders" among us. As a deontologist, I have obvious problems with this. We have a moral duty not to trick people into doing things by telling them things that are false, even if the consequence of their doing these things is good. We also ought not to patronize people or behave paternalistically towards adults. Having people believe a myth because doing so sustains a good tradition is patronizing (in that it assumes that the tradition could not be sustained by acquainting peop! ! le with the genuine good reasons we have that show that the tradition is good). It is paternalistic in that it assumes that some of us have a right to use ambiguity to sustain myth that sustains a good tradition. What we actually have is a moral obligation not to do this. But suppose consequentialism is true, and that some good traditions can only be sustained by giving people texts ambiguous enough to sustain whatever myth (interpretation) works for now to keep the tradition alive? (Aside: I see a problem for the identity of a tradition essentially tied to a myth if the myth (the interpretation of a text, as you have it) changes substantially. Can it be the same tradition that is being sustained? I doubt it.) Well , anyway, since from a consequentialist point-of-view anything is justified if it is necessary to achieving the best of all possible outcomes, presumably in the right circumstances it is right to go for ambiguity in a text. Of course, if it turns out that grounding a good tradition in a myth (grounding morality in religious myth, for example) in the long run undermines the tradition, since people catch on to and reject any interpretation that is not actually a good reason for the tradition (good reasons needing no grounding in ! ! any specific text), then consequentialism also implies that what you describe vis-a-vie sustaining tradition is not a virtue of ambiguity. - George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 17:32:55 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA25438 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA19851 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA29380 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA29366 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:38:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (schools.eastnet.ecu.edu [150.216.8.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA25596 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:37:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA71 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:37:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 15:38:31 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19971212203739750.AAA71@[150.216.15.103]> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O Re Ostrow/Kaneda's: >By most recent though not the most recent theorizing all meaning is >ambiguous and is the product of interpretation, it is not the ambiguity >that supplies content but the enlivened mind. The "enlivened mind" makes guesses at how people are using meaningful sentences, artworks (etc.). Were declarative sentences without meaning (were there was nothing that is asserted or said by declarative sentences), our procedures for guessing what someone was doing who used them would be limited to how we guess what someone is doing when they use other objects that lack semantic significance. They would be dramatially reduced. Knowing what a sentence says is part of what we take into account in trying to figure out what someone who uses it is doing with it. And sometimes all they are doing is trying to say what the sentence says. >Meaning after all does not >exist in things but is a construct attributed to them, when this attribute >becomes common enough one can say they signify. Sentences have meanings relative to linguistic practices. Linguistic practices are grounded in group interpretative practices. It is one thing to say something's meaning is relative to group interpretive practices that have a life that is independent of any individual interpreter and, once established, of the group itself to some extent, and another to say that something's meaning is entirely a function of how individuals interpret it. The latter is false. >Given this belief on my >part significant parts of this thread seem incomprehensible in their >positivism and essentialism. There have been no positivist points-of-view expressed in this thread as yet. I do not recall any significant appeals to essentialism on the issues of ambiguity and interpretation, though I might not have noticed, since from my perspective "essentialism" is not a dirty word. Saying that a sentence can have a meaning (say something) that is independent of how readers interpret the sentence at a time and of the author's intended meaning does not commit one to either positivism or essentialism. (It probably commits one to rejecting a behaviorist account of meaning and a physicalist account of language, as these alternatives usually are understood.) >Once again objects do not supply meaning they >only stimulate our ability to differentiate between the various possible >meanings we have learned to attribute or synthesize within certain >situations. The only reasonable way to explain our actual differentiations is to attribute meanings to sentences. Quasi-behavioral theories that introduce something called "interpretation" between the external stimulus (ink on a page) and behavioral output (producing sounds or more ink marks, or other actions, etc.) fall to the same objections that killed behaviorist theories of meaning, such as Skinners' theory of meaning. >come on guys if you can't say what >you mean at least reflect upon your/ our situation so as not to say only >what can grammatically be said. > Do you not see the irony in your making this remark? If "come on guys if you can't say what you mean at least reflect upon your/ our situation so as not to say only what can grammatically be said" is just so many meaningless light and dark areas on my computer screen, which, like everything else in the world, is something to which I can give an interpretation, then I have no idea what's going on here. I certainly have no basis for concluding that the interpretation I am inclined to project into these light and dark areas at this moment has anything to do with anything you are doing. ( can't say "anything you are saying, since on the truth of my interpretation of your marks you can't be saying anything.) The only way for me to conclude otherwise in this situation is to assume that what I read says something in English in virtue of its relation to linguistic practices you and I have internalized, and that what is says is more or less what you intended to communicate. If I turn out to be wrong about the latter, this does not make me wrong about the former (that you said what I read). A popular way to assert that texts do not have meanings is to assert "there are no texts, there are only interpretations." Given how I interpret this quip, if it is true, I have no idea what it means to anyone else, nor could I ever. However, since an interpretation (as a mentalese 'sentence in the head') is just another text, if the quip is true, interpretations also are meaningless. If there are no (meaningful) texts, there are no interpretations! BTW, no one in this thread has asserted that what a sentence says is restricted to what can be gramatically said. - George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 17:43:53 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA29015 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA11234 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:43:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA00055 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA00048 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (eastnet.educ.ecu.edu [150.216.8.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA00661 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA80 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:52:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 15:53:32 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19971212205240140.AAA80@[150.216.15.103]> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O re: > I do believe that this thread could use a general course in linguistics, >interpertation is the act of decoding signs and making judgements >concerning the resulting data. These signs iclude not only the signifiers >but also their order and context. What's the difference between decoding signs and just plain old reading? One decodes encoded texts. The text your are reading now is not encoded. It is just plain old text. The use of terms like "decoding" as metaphors for what happens when we read interfers with understanding how language works. People read things are not engaged in acts of decoding, they are simply reading. They can do this without making any judgments about what they read (the resulting data?). Of course we can make judgments about why what we read says what it does. Some people call doing this "interpreting the text." But what ususally is being interpreted are the actions of the person who produced the text. The meaning instantiated by the text is logically independent of the identity of these actions. If not, you have no idea of what any of the things I am writing say, and I can make no sense of your ability to produced marks that have a meaningful realtion to what I believe my marks say. - George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 18:12:30 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA08950 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA28195 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA00436 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA00426 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (schools.eastnet.ecu.edu [150.216.8.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA15456 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA144 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:04:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: finals Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 16:05:36 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19971212210444265.AAA144@[150.216.15.103]> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O re: > >On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:14:00 -0600 (CST), James R Hamilton wrote: >>Reflections on the recent spate of postings: Some of you are done with >>your finals. Some of you are avoiding grading finals. ARRRRGGGHHHH (or >>words to that effect). >WT: All of you are helping others avoid grading finals. You are exactly right! My last final is next Tuesday. I also am avoiding doing the summer class schedule and starting on the Fall 98 schedule, revising the department's code, doing a writing intensive curriculum for phil 3521, putting books on reserve for next term for a faculty member who is abroad, getting a classroom wired for the internet, finishing reviewing a paper, doing a techonology enhancement proposal for the department, and calling the university attorney to get a copy of the public records law. Not to mention working on papers. So don't expect this thread to die soon, but do expect my part in it to die suddenly, when I can no longer avoid the above tasks by engaging in this exchange. BTW, the most important key on our keyboards is the "delete" key. Just follow the rule "delete before opening" and all becomes well again in the world of e-mail lists. George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 18:12:55 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA09085 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA19283 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:12:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA01536 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:36:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA01527 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:36:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (eastnet.educ.ecu.edu [150.216.8.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA21472 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA456 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:35:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 16:35:59 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-ID: <19971212213506890.AAA456@[150.216.15.103]> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id QAA01529 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O re: GB: >>Given the privacy of the mental, I do not see how this could be >>established, even if true. > > >That is because you clearly have no knowledge of the issue. Of which issue? Of how neurobiological activity can instantiate meaningful thought, or of how neurobiological activity can result in observable behavior that is the kind of behavior that we ordinarily understand to involve meaningful thought (with no commitment to the ontology of thoughts, etc.)? I am familiar with interesting work on the latter issue. I see no success in the attempts to use this work to address the former issue. But perhaps the psychologist you cite are addressing the former issue, an issue in the philosophy of mind, and not just the latter. >You >are not expected to, but until you do have at least an elementary >understanding it would be appreciated if you avoided sharing that >ignorance. Ah, there's always that good old delete key . . . or is someone forcing you to read my posts? Well, I am familiar with are the host of philosophical problems that arise when one trys to account for mental phenomena by talking about physical phenomena. You are right, I am not aware of any psychologist who resolves these problems, or any physicalist philosopher of mind, either. In fact, I am not aware of any psychologist of note who really is concerned with the philosophical issues that concern philosophers in this area. From my perspective, the issues of concern to philosophers are not matters that science can settle, since they involve questions about the philosophical assumptions scientist must make in order to do science in the first place. (If eliminative physicalism is true, I am wrong in this. But I do not see how it can possible be true.) >Your inability to comprehend >the fact isn’t significantly relevant to its verity. > That is certainly true. But I am always struck by how people who appeal to authority so seldom provide those of us who are ignorant with a glimpse of what the authority says, so as to let us see if what the authority is an authority on has anything to do with the philosophical problem that interest us. Frankly, I am skeptical that the psychologist you cite deal with the philosophical issues that were raised in some of the comments in your posts. It is easy for you to show me that I am wrong in this by paraphrasing something they say about the philosophical issue. > >GE: >>meaning that in some >>respects they are essentially the same. > >GB: >>I use the same mechanism for pumping gas and water, meaning in some = >>respects they are essentially the same. What respect? In that they = >>are both capable to being pumped by the same pump? Ah, but this is = >>not a respect in which water and gas are essentially the same; = >>perhaps they are not "essentially" the same in any respect. > > >Again, an introductory level understanding of the issue would >rescue us from such inappropriate analogies. > This remark does not reveal the inappropriateness of the analogy. My point is that the reasoning you preented is fallacious, even if you conclusion is correct. - George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 13 00:15:09 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id AAA13495 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:15:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA16287 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:15:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA08954 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA08947 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx.cei.gov.cn ([203.207.119.7]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA02093 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:28:45 -0500 (EST) From: shjqly@ht.rol.cn.net Received: from win (port13.cei.gov.cn [203.207.119.129]) by mx.cei.gov.cn (8.7.5+2.6Wbeta6/3.4W CEI-SIC 96110613) with ESMTP id LAA22169 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:33:51 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <349201E1.FFC0B696@ht.rol.cn.net> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:32:50 +0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "aesthetics@indiana.edu" Subject: Aesthetics: unsubscription X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: shjqly@ht.rol.cn.net Status: O __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 12 06:28:16 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id GAA10172 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:28:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA28660 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:28:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id EAA02543 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id EAA02536 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from donald.uoregon.edu (donald.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.6]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA12692 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:40:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.223.150.205] (cisco-ts16-line5.uoregon.edu) by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #26538) with SMTP id <01IR2HU008NK8WWWQ0@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:40:49 PST Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 02:41:10 -0700 From: acox@oregon.uoregon.edu (Arnie Cox) Subject: Aesthetics: Postmodernism To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: acox@oregon.uoregon.edu (Arnie Cox) Status: O On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Claire Launchbury wrote: >> I wonder if anyone can help me. I have to deliver a seminar >> presentation about post-modernist aesthetics and music, and >> then write an essay. If anyone has anything to suggest I'd >> be very grateful. To which {Brad Brace} replied: >It's far too late for postmodernism; besides it never really existed >except as a "movement" to create positions in academia... ;-) It may be too late, but Lawrence Kramer's _Classical Music and Postmodern Knowledge_ (Univ. of Calif. Press, 1995) might reward your curiosity. I found the "Epilogue a` 4: Autonomy, Elvis, Cinders, Fingering Bach" especially delicious. But don't ask me what postmodern knowledge is. or postmodern. or knowledge. (or classical, or music) Arnie ________________________________________________________________________ Arnie Cox "How but in custom and ceremony 1680 Arthur St are innocence and beauty born?" Eugene, OR 97403 (541) 344-4268 - W.B. Yeats acox@oregon.uoregon.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 13 12:39:45 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA14755 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:39:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA14969 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:39:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA18029 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:27:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA18022 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:27:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA17683 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.20 (srq1a.netline.net [205.160.7.20]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA27268 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:14:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3492712B.17C5@netline.net> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:27:44 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O GB: >Frankly, I am skeptical that the psychologist you cite deal >with the philosophical issues that were raised in some of the >comments in your posts. It is easy for you to show me that I >am wrong in this by paraphrasing something they say about >the philosophical issue. I apologize for being unclear. I thought that I *was* paraphrasing the positions of Kosslyn and Shepard. My mistake. The philosophical and scientific aspects of their work have been bounced around for so many years and by so many sources that they've become far too complex to solidly paraphrase in the level of depth afforded by list communication. I should have pointed out that the book _ The Imagery Debate _ that I mentioned in an earlier post was written by Michael Tye, a “philosopher” from MIT. His book directly deals with the work of Kosslyn and Shepard in a brief (about 150 pp.) and lucid summary of the history of the debate that surrounded their work. Because of the amazing developments in brain imaging devices such as positron emission tomography (PET scans), huge leaps in the study of the brain/mind connection are being made everyday and therefore Tye’s book is already a little bit dated (1991) but that shouldn’t deter anyone from reading it. BTW, many more psychologists than the ones that I cited deal with philosophical issues raised by the comments in my posts. Tye’s book summarizes the positions of many of these researchers and basically breaks them down into two groups: 1) Pictorialists are those that believe that although we do not have actual pictures in our brain, our minds represent images depictively (in diagrammatic representations that specify the locations and values of configurations of points in a space) and 2) Descriptionalists are those that believe that mental images are represented propositionally (in sentential relationships). Since brain imaging experiments have been demonstrating that visual and mental images are processed the same way as far as neuronic activity and location, and the visual world is pictorial, the so called pictorialists believe that they have shown that the syntactical structure of mental imagery is also pictorial and therefore disparate from the linguistic syntax that is processed in the neocortex. As more dramatic results of brain imaging experiments pile up in support of the pictorialists, our understanding of imagery increases exponentially. In fact, these findings have been of such monumental importance that the last President declared this the “decade of the brain”. (for what it’s worth). GB: >Of which issue? Of how neurobiological activity can instantiate >meaningful thought, or of how neurobiological activity can result >in observable behavior that is the kind of behavior that we ordinarily >understand to involve meaningful thought (with no commitment to >the ontology of thoughts, etc.)? I am familiar with interesting work >on the latter issue. I see no success in the attempts to use this work >to address the former issue. I’m sorry, I don’t understand what is being asked here. In what case would meaningful thought not be instantiated by neurobiological activity? A brain isn’t needed by a mind? Isn’t this Cartesian dualism in the extreme? David Chalmers, another philosopher of mind presents a contemporary argument for dualism (although not specifically Cartesian in the strict sense) in his book _ The Conscious Mind _ as does the biologist Rupert Sheldrake. Were you saying that while the mind arises from the brain, it doesn’t obey the laws of the physical world and therefore exists in some other dimension (along the lines of Chalmers)? Were you saying that consciousness exists in the physical world in everything from rocks to trees (along the lines of Sheldrake, if I understand him correctly)? Is there yet another situation where meaningful thoughts can spring into existence without being instantiated by neurobiological activity? GB: >From my perspective, the issues of concern to philosophers are not >matters that science can settle, since they involve questions about the >philosophical assumptions scientist must make in order to do science >in the first place. (If eliminative physicalism is true, I am wrong in this. >But I do not see how it can possible be true.) I agree with you that eliminative physicalism reeks of denial because it tries to explain away the one thing that we can be most sure of existing; our own awareness. Because of this, the opposite position (there is no physical world) would be probably be an easier task to prove. However, I don’t think that an eliminative stance is necessary for science to settle specific philosophical issues. For example, isn’t it a generally held belief that scientific findings negated Descartes’ position that the soul resides in the pineal gland? Isn’t this true of a number of philosophical beliefs dating all the way back to ether? It may be argued that the scientific aspects can be separated from the philosophic, but I think that would be an exercise in futility. Glenn English __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 13 13:28:15 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA29901 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA22754 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA18969 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA18960 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:10:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk (hermes.ex.ac.uk [144.173.6.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA19186 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from dialup19 [144.173.6.219] by hermes via SMTP (RAA23854); Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:06:28 GMT From: Claire Launchbury To: Aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Postmodernism & Spam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:11:07 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Priority: NORMAL X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.1.1 Build (17) X-Authentication: IMSP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Claire Launchbury Status: O Thank you, that is precisely what is needed. I too believe it is possible to discuss postmodernism, be it a current force or not. As one involved in historical musicology the temporal interpretation is something I had rather presupposed. So, postmodernism, what is (was) it and what does (did) it do? On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:39:27 -0400 "Mark A. Cheetham" wrote: > I've been following this morning's "discussion" of PMism with some dismay. > I agree that the term may be outmoded, and even that the period (if one > adopts a temporal interpretation) may be past. But the Baroque is past, > too: does that mean we can't discuss its characteristics with some > intelligence? There is a lot to say about PMism, pro and con. There is a > lot of good writing about it, though as with any other controversial topic, > there is the dross too. But what has littered our screens lately is > embarrasing. Does anyone agree that we should have a real discussion or > none at all? > > Mark A. Cheetham > Professor > > Department of Visual Arts > John Labatt Visual Arts Centre > The University of Western Ontario > LONDON, ONTARIO, CANADA N6A 5B7 > > Tel: 519-661-3440 Fax: 519-661-2020 (office) / 519-434-6205 (home) > EMail: cheetham@julian.uwo.ca > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl ---------------------- Claire Launchbury University of Exeter 26 Culverland Road EX4 6JJ (01392) 273568 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 13 13:31:09 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA01028 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:31:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA12240 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA19263 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA19256 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA07881 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL6-ASYNC01.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA02420; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:38:33 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971212205240140.AAA80@[150.216.15.103]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:35:54 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O G. Bailey wrote > >What's the difference between decoding signs and just plain old reading? >One decodes encoded texts. The text your are reading now is not encoded. > It is just plain old text. The use of terms like "decoding" as metaphors >for what happens when we read interfers with understanding how language >works. People read things are not engaged in acts of decoding, they are >simply reading. They can do this without making any judgments about what >they read (the resulting data?). Of course we can make judgments about >why what we read says what it does. Some people call doing this >"interpreting the text." But what ususally is being interpreted are the >actions of the person who produced the text. The meaning instantiated by >the text is logically independent of the identity of these actions. If >not, you have no idea of what any of the things I am writing say, and I >can make no sense of your ability to produced marks that have a >meaningful realtion to what I believe my marks say. > >- George If you think that the activities you have just described do not constitutecoding and decoding -- just because they take place on the habitual level rather than necessitating a decoder ring ( which actually has to do with encryption) then there is nothing more to be written on this matter becuase you believe that thhere are things such as plain old reading, plain old texts and simply reading which must simple be one of those things that merely and plainly take place somehow and by some means other than being taught to apply the codes and skills necessary to decipher the marks put before them-- transforming them in some cases into sounds or word images that form signs system of our language. SAUL __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 13 15:39:59 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA11434 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA18304 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:39:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA20528 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA20513 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:00:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id NAA14981 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:59:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL6-ASYNC35.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AB23762; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:59:31 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:56:53 -0500 To: From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Postmodernism Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O re: > > >{ brad brace } wrote: > >> It's far too late for postmodernism; besides it never really existed >> except as a "movement" to create positions in academia... ;-) > >I am not sure....Maybe it existed so that we could, "construct" >positions in academia... > Nah, that's what Modernism was all about. Postmodernism is about deconstructing academic disciplines __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 13 16:30:18 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id QAA28504 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:30:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA25621 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:30:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA21389 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA21382 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA28269 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EL500F0189L96@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:46:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:46:33 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck Subject: Aesthetics: Tradition and interpretation To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O Just a few comments in response to George Bailey's asertions reagrding changes in interpretation of traditions. I'm not for the most part specifically addressing Bailey's points here--I'm kind of more taking the ball and running with it. It does not necessarily follow that a change in interpretation means that at least one of the interpretations is/was false. Or, I should say, it does not mean that it is/was absolutely and for all times false. Religious traditions (the case of most interest to me in this regard) exist as a means of providing people with some spiritual/emotional/ethical anchor-point. I won't attempt to address the question of spiritual truth here, as that's a sticky wicket to say the least and the matter can be suitably covered by staying with the more humanist functions. (Note that I do not say that there is no such thing as spiritual truth etc.) We can look at the function of religion with varying degrees of resolution ("resolution" used as one uses it for computer graphics). Most broadly, a given religion may be seen to function as a sort of steady point of quasi-absolute reference in a society. Also simply to give people something to believe in. At that level, the religion could be taken numerous different ways and still perform the function. And, since truth value is relative to pragmatic circumstances--a thing is true if its effect is in line with the fundamental assumptions governing the system of understanding within which the utterance is received--the religion is in this respect functionally true. If, that is, at root a person turns to religion as a means of providing his/her life with meaning, and it accomplishes this, then in that respect it effects a functional truth for the person, even if other details are not verifiably true. Naturally, if some of the other details will tend to be disbelieved, this will undermine the truth value spoken of. In more detailed respects--in higher resolution--the matter may be dealt with in a similar fashion. Traditions are important because of their emotional value to people; they provide a point of reference, of security, etc. That is why we even have the idea "tradition." If all we cared about were positivistically verifiable data, "tradition" would not even exist as a concept. And these emotional values will be supported by different hard data for different societies at different times. If, for instance, your religion teaches fairness between the sexes, then it makes sense that in 1st C. C.E. Palestine divorce would be condemned because in that chronotope divorce was a thing which husbands would enact to the great disadvantage of the wives and at no real loss to the husband and because condemning divorce was a correct step in the direction of enforcing the understanding that the sexes should be equal; but it also makes sense that in 20th C. C.E. Europe and North America divorce should be allowed, because the net result for the women concerned is much more positive. The reader may take it that I am saying that a thing may be called true that is not absolutely true but is the correct thing in a given situation in order to arrive at what is true from a more advanced perspective. This is like saying that if I wish to head east by ship and I am in the Panama Canal, it is right for me to be going northwest (an atlas will confirm this for the curious). Yes, I do mean to say that. After all, our judgements of truth are based entirely on the a prioris of our own positions. Truth cannot but be positional (though obviously some things are common to all positions as far as we know, e.g., that gravity works). If I am standing to your left and we are both facing north, you will be on my right. If I turn 180 degrees, you will be on my left, but still facing north. But "right" and "left" are no less meaningful than "north" and "south." And similarly, for a tradition, since the importance of traditions--and especially religious ones--is their emotional, ethical and spiritual value for the people concerned, quibbles over physical verifiables are in general peripheral. Not meaningless, since physical verification can affect emotional states (notably faith), but peripheral. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 13 17:22:17 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA14411 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:22:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA23561 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA23474 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA23467 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:09:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id QAA04126 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:08:21 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4465707@isis.reed.edu> Date: 13 Dec 97 11:48:09 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re:Expression and communication To: ostrow@is2.nyu.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O >By most recent though not the most recent theorizing all meaning is ambiguious and is the product of interpertation, it is not the ambiguity that supplies content but the enlivened mind.< The principle of charity compells me to try to understand this. That '...all meaning is ambiguous...,' however, seems to be simply a muddle. An utterance (signal, remark, word, etc.) is ambiguous just because it has more than one possible meaning; the author of the phrase in quotes would seem to be saying that 'all meaning' (whatever that may mean) has more than one meaning (i.e., is ambiguous). But since ambiguity depends on an utterance's having more than one *reasonably clear* meaning, this is absurd: if an utterance had *no* reasonably clear meaning it would be unintelligible, not ambiguous. No one has said that 'ambiguity supplies content,' so to deny that it does seems odd. (I have no idea what it would mean for ambiguity to 'supply content' in any case.) Now, the 'enlivened mind' may somehow 'supply content' to something, but perhaps a less grand way of putting this would be to say that readers and hearers sometimes interpret prima facie ambiguous statements (etc.) as best they can, and that reasonable people may disagree, absent confirming evidence one way or another, about how something is to be understood. But most of us do not go to the left when the arrow points to the right, and disputes seldom break out as to how >---> is to be interpreted as a sign indicating the proper direction of travel. Nor does it seem open to one to 'supply content' (meaning?) ad lib. This would make the very idea of language incoherent. >Meaning after all does not exist in things but is a construct attributed to them, when this attribute becomes common enough one can say they signify.< We learned the letters of the alphabet when we were small, and soon after, learned words, then sentences: perhaps there is no real order of priority here, although most of us do, I think, learn the alphabet before we learn to understand sentences. We grow up in a community of language users, and do not have to invent language for ourselves. As adult language users we do not pause to 'attribute' meaning to words such as 'and,' 'or,' 'cat,' 'diatribe,' 'meter,' gazelle,' etc. Nor would we be free to attribute to them any old meaning (a la Humpty-Dumpty) that struck our fancy. That language is conventional (i.e., doesn't grow on trees) does not entail that one is free to mean anything one pleases by any word in any context whatsoever. This would be not attribution or interpretation but psychosis. >Given this belief on my part significant parts of this thread seem incomprehesible in their positivism and essentialism.< I've seen no evidence of either in this thread, and would agree with George Bailey that there are no signs of them. >...Ambiguity is not of meaning but the inability to decisively attribute a signified to a signifier.< But what causes this inability? Surely it's brought about by the fact that what one is trying to understand is ambiguous, i.e., has more than one possible meaning and that given the limitations of the circumstances one cannot decide which is the right one. The other sort of inability might be due to mere ineptness, to being unfamiliar with a particular word, to not knowing a particular language, or to bad eyesight. There are other possibilities. >...if you can't say what you mean atleast reflect uppon your/ our situation so as not to say only what can grammatically be said.< 'Meaning,' grammar, and ambiguity pass each other by. Something may be 'grammatically correct' and yet meaningless; ungrammatical and yet meaningful--and either grammatical or ungrammatical and yet ambiguous. I have reflected on this situation long enough for now. All good wishes, Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 13 16:30:22 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id QAA28535 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:30:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA22794 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:30:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA21582 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA21575 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:57:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA04999 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EL500D018PVPZ@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:56:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:56:19 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Postmodernism In-reply-to: <19971212135512953.AAA55@[150.216.15.103]> To: pybailey Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, pybailey wrote: > re: > > > > > > >{ brad brace } wrote: > > > >> It's far too late for postmodernism; besides it never really existed > >> except as a "movement" to create positions in academia... ;-) > > > >I am not sure....Maybe it existed so that we could, "construct" > >positions in academia... > > > > Nah, that's what Modernism was all about. Postmodernism is about > deconstructing academic positions. - George It's not postmodernism that I se deconstructing academic positions. It's conservative politics and bottom-line-minded boards. At Carleton U. in Ottawa, entire departments are being closed down for no other reasons than saving a little dough and parroting the line that a discipline must directly eventuate in money-producing jobs in order for it to have any value. If postmodernism is connected with the deconstruction of academic positions, it's because many or most of the people making political and fiscal decisions don't understand it and think it's stupid. This is a question of idle interest for most tenured professors. For me, on the other hand, it means taking a job somewhere other than academia altogether because none are to be gotten at universities (or, well, nearly none, and those that are open are mostly taken by older academics who are leaving positions that are being eliminated). Perhaps we will all be reborn in an alternate universe where ideas have the currency that money has here. That, at least, would be a bit more sensible! OK, soapbox time over for me. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 13 16:35:00 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id QAA29852 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA05215 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA22735 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA22708 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:31:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from gabriel.cc.emory.edu (gabriel.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.30]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA10432 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:30:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mverhae.resnet.emory.edu (GA-k9.resnet.emory.edu [170.140.89.9]) by gabriel.cc.emory.edu (8.7.3/8.6.9-950630.01osg-itd.null) with SMTP id PAA05736; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:31:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971213153105.006b2c8c@pop3.service.emory.edu> X-Sender: mverhae@pop3.service.emory.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:31:05 -0500 To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey), From: Marcus Verhaegh Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Art, Communication, & Tradition In-Reply-To: <19971212194407687.AAA429@[150.216.15.103]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Marcus Verhaegh Status: O 1. At 02:44 PM 12/12/97 -0400, pybailey wrote: > One has to get what we are referring to as "what the artist intended the painting to communicate" from a source other than >the work in order to understand what the work illustrates. If the artist is the source of this information, then she will have >communicated what she intended to communicate, just not by means of the work. Why can one not "get" from the work what the artist intended to the painting to communicate, in the sense of making a correct interpretation on this based on the work? --For example, based on knowledge of what the work illustrates well. Perhaps one cannot make such interpretations based on "the work alone," I would agree. Much additional knowledge will generally be required; soo to in the case of interpreting "the sentence alone." Consider the case of someone putting one hand over her mouth and pointing with the other to a piece of paper with a statement written on it.... Has she not communicated by means of the gestures, albeit not by the gestures alone? Can not the act of creating a work of art involve a perhaps quite ambiguous form of pointing, of which we inherit the trace? A work might be highly ineffective as a means of communicating relative to more straightforward approaches, and what a work does might involve much more than acting as such a means. But one can "really want to communicate" by means of the work even if one at the same time has further non-communicative goals for which, as I have earlier suggested, a basic element of communication can play a crucial role. 2. You allow for appeals to authority as justification for belief. This was all that was required for my example about the value of an artwork in sustaining a tradition. You describe the need for such appeals as a "practical" necessity, like facts we "'must' provisionally" accept because we cannot adaquately evaluate them ourselves at the time. I perhaps am somewhat more impressed than you by how much we have to take on "faith," which is the flip-side of perhaps being somewhat less impressed with the individual's ability to evaluate all the very important matters which otherwise require reliance upon authority (mostly of the dead?). Ours seems a particularly difficult situation given that these "very important matters" tend to be inter-related. In short, I am doubtful that reliance upon authority can ever be "bracketed" in one's evaluations. I would of course agree that individuals ought to try to evaluate matters central to their lives, thus perhaps reducing the degree to which they are depedent upon authority. And so long as it _is_ healthy, skepticism is fine with me.... 3. You further attack the claim that the fact of something being traditional cannot count a reason for "continuing it." Your ability to cite barbaric practices, mercifully un-demonstrated, I find un-convincing. Barbarities justified by appeals to tradition are in general not done away with because they are found to be only traditional, but because they are found to be barbarities. I.e., their being traditional is not found sufficient reason for continuing them. To hold that something being traditional can count as reason for keeping it alive does not commit one to just asserting 'It's traditional!" when challenged. A memeber of a tradition can for instance offer her belief that the tradition of which the practice or text is part is one grounded in truth, even if it is not always clear how its parts are--and even if some might not be, and so ought to be rejected when this becomes clear. She can claim that a practice is valuable, even if she is not ultimately sure why, and still have justification for her belief insofar as her more general belief in the tradition is justified. 4. >This argument maintains that the past interpretation is false, and does not maintain that the current interpretation is true. > No, it does maintain that the current interpretation is true. But then the basis for this belief is that the text is an expression of truth, so that if it is interpreted as saying something false, this would be a reason to think that it is the interpretation which is false, not the text. This need not involve a conspiracy, such as that you outline. It does need to involve a credible interpretation, not just a true one, if belief in the truth of the text is to translate into belief in the truth interpreted as found in the text. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 13 20:30:37 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA03779 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:30:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA12075 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:30:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA26786 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA26779 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:05:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA04486; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:05:01 -0500 (EST) From: GJLEONARD Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:03:05 EST To: hamilton@ksu.edu, owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: finals Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: GJLEONARD Status: O I second James Hamilton's ARRGGH. Wd it not be better netiquette to think over some of one's postings and condense them into a single brief post, given that the list is a captive audience? Yet even as I say this I feel like I'm both anti free speech AND a party pooper. But I think I really had better sign off the list while I'm out of town over the holidays. Last time when I came home there were, I think, 182 postings waiting for me. Feeling like the Grinch, G. Leonard Prof. of Interdisciplinary Humanities San Francisco State U. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 13 22:23:19 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id WAA29883 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:23:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA28252 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA28353 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:54:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA28345 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:54:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from post.demon.nl (post.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id UAA22625 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from p-peters.demon.nl ([195.11.255.57]) by post.demon.nl id aa0010146; 14 Dec 97 2:52 MET Message-ID: <34933BC9.1E21F6BE@p-peters.demon.nl> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:52:09 +0100 From: p-peters X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [nl] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcus Verhaegh CC: pybailey , aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Art, Communication, & Tradition References: <3.0.3.32.19971213153105.006b2c8c@pop3.service.emory.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: p-peters Status: O Marcus Verhaegh schreef: > 1. At 02:44 PM 12/12/97 -0400, pybailey wrote: > > One has to get what we are referring to as "what the artist intended the > painting to communicate" from a source other than >the work in order to > understand what the work illustrates. If the artist is the source of this > information, then she will have >communicated what she intended to > communicate, just not by means of the work. > > Why can one not "get" from the work what the artist intended to the > painting to communicate, in the sense of making a correct interpretation on > this based on the work? --For example, based on knowledge of what the > work illustrates well. Perhaps one cannot make such interpretations based > on "the work alone," I would agree. Much additional knowledge will > generally be required; soo to in the case of interpreting "the sentence > alone." > > Consider the case of someone putting one hand over her mouth and pointing > with the other to a piece of paper with a statement written on it.... Has > she not communicated by means of the gestures, albeit not by the gestures > alone? Can not the act of creating a work of art involve a perhaps quite > ambiguous form of pointing, of which we inherit the trace? A work might be > highly ineffective as a means of communicating relative to more > straightforward approaches, and what a work does might involve much more > than acting as such a means. But one can "really want to communicate" by > means of the work even if one at the same time has further > non-communicative goals for which, as I have earlier suggested, a basic > element of communication can play a crucial role. > > 2. You allow for appeals to authority as justification for belief. This > was all that was required for my example about the value of an artwork in > sustaining a tradition. > > You describe the need for such appeals as a "practical" necessity, like > facts we "'must' provisionally" accept because we cannot adaquately > evaluate them ourselves at the time. I perhaps am somewhat more impressed > than you by how much we have to take on "faith," which is the flip-side of > perhaps being somewhat less impressed with the individual's ability to > evaluate all the very important matters which otherwise require reliance > upon authority (mostly of the dead?). Ours seems a particularly difficult > situation given that these "very important matters" tend to be > inter-related. In short, I am doubtful that reliance upon authority can > ever be "bracketed" in one's evaluations. > > I would of course agree that individuals ought to try to evaluate matters > central to their lives, thus perhaps reducing the degree to which they are > depedent upon authority. And so long as it _is_ healthy, skepticism is > fine with me.... > > 3. You further attack the claim that the fact of something being > traditional cannot count a reason for "continuing it." Your ability to > cite barbaric practices, mercifully un-demonstrated, I find un-convincing. > Barbarities justified by appeals to tradition are in general not done away > with because they are found to be only traditional, but because they are > found to be barbarities. I.e., their being traditional is not found > sufficient reason for continuing them. > > To hold that something being traditional can count as reason for keeping it > alive does not commit one to just asserting 'It's traditional!" when > challenged. A memeber of a tradition can for instance offer her belief > that the tradition of which the practice or text is part is one grounded in > truth, even if it is not always clear how its parts are--and even if some > might not be, and so ought to be rejected when this becomes clear. She can > claim that a practice is valuable, even if she is not ultimately sure why, > and still have justification for her belief insofar as her more general > belief in the tradition is justified. > > 4. >This argument maintains that the past interpretation is false, and > does not maintain that the current interpretation is true. > > No, it does maintain that the current interpretation is true. But then the > basis for this belief is that the text is an expression of truth, so that > if it is interpreted as saying something false, this would be a reason to > think that it is the interpretation which is false, not the text. This > need not involve a conspiracy, such as that you outline. It does need to > involve a credible interpretation, not just a true one, if belief in the > truth of the text is to translate into belief in the truth interpreted as > found in the text. > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl Without discrediting other views I, as an art historian working in the field of contemporary art, find that no artwork is unambiguous or, rather, open to only one interpretation which would have to coincide with the artist's intentions. It is nice that we can ask living artists about their intentions but their intentions are not necessarily synonymous with the possible meaning(s) of the work. As Eco has said more than once, the intentio auctoris can never be more than one of several (possibly infinite) 'model readings' of the work. The intentio lectoris may be as valid. This depends on the idea that whatever any interpretation may be like, it should actually be possible to find this reading in the 'text', e.g. it must be derived as closely as possible from the givens in the work. It it's not, it is only a subjective problem with no specified meaning for others (except maybe in a literary sense). But, although a work of art may be meant to communicate and art may be a means of communication, there are no other rules. One can never be sure of what it (wants to) communicate(s) and it is not so very important either. The crucial question is whether it will further debate as long as this debate is actually dependent on and derived from the actual givens in the artwork. That is the nature of art, especially in our day and age and maybe since Malevich painted his black square and since Kandinsky and Mondrian. But I believe it also is valid concerning older artworks where we are much less documented on the intentions of the artists(s). The history of ideas this is not a history of artworks and their alleged pretentions alone but even more of their possible interpretations. One might even go as far as to say that the history of art is really a history of different interpretations. Philip Peters email: philip@p-peters.demon.nl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 14 00:07:13 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id AAA23416 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:07:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA20312 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:07:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA00089 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA00081 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA22301 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:29:55 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IR51GSNOCK9BWGZU@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:31:33 EST Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:31:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and Communication To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IR51GSNOCM9BWGZU@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" X-VMS-Cc: "cantrirb@buffalostate.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O When George Bailey asked Glenn English to paraphrase some of the philos- ophers the latter was citing, and English responded forthrightly, matters suddenly became very interesting. English paraphrased Michael Tye as dividing the brain research into two main opposing views, pictorialists and descript- ionalists. According to the former view, English says, "our minds represent images depictively (in diagrammatic representations that specify the locations and values of configurations of points in a space.)" According to the latter view, English says, "the syntactical structure of mental imagery is also pictorial and therefore disparate from the linguistic syntax that is processed in the neo-cortex." Now, the point at issue is whether these two schools of brain research are or are not ignoring fundamental philosophic issues. The two paraphrases of the two schools, contained within quotation marks in the previous paragraph, clearlyignorephilosophical semantics.For one thing,theyignore the semantic dis- tinction between that which pictures or describes, namely the image, and that which is pictured or described, namely the world. This is not the mind-body distinction, of course, and English agrees. It is an issue in analytic phil- osophy, namely how scientists use language. For another thing, these two paraphrases ignore the semantic distinction between truth and falsity. Let us imagine a diagram picturing or depicting the world. Is the picture or description true of the world? Or did a scientist make a mistake, say conflating a spatio-temporal location (having spatio-temporal extent) with a spatio-temporal point (lacking spatio-temporal extent)? __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 14 15:23:45 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA12932 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA01099 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:23:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA09826 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA09819 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.greenvillenc.com (root@[207.201.229.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA21411 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:13:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.201.229.100] (dialup-100.greenvillenc.com [207.201.229.100]) by ns1.greenvillenc.com (8.8.4/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA07961 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:15:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199712141915.OAA07961@ns1.greenvillenc.com> Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Tradition and interpretation Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 14:22:05 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: GWS Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: GWS Bailey Status: O Here Harbeck gives an argument for tradition: Traditions are important because of their >emotional value to people; they provide a point of reference, of security, >etc. The Ceteris parabis clause implicit in the argument is that the tradition does not harm and does not require people to believe obvious untruths. The philosophically problematic dimension is "how obvious an untruth before we are choosing between truth and happiness?" Some of us, naively, do not find happiness at the cost of truth desirable. I guess this is naive since I also assume a case can be made that I could not live with some of the propositions contained in the full truth about myself. Yet I still do not find happines at the cose of truth desirable. Is this proof (if proof was neded) that I am basically irrational? - George That is why we even have the idea "tradition." If all we cared about >were positivistically verifiable data, "tradition" would not even exist as >a concept. And these emotional values will be supported by different hard >data for different societies at different times. If, for instance, your >religion teaches fairness between the sexes, then it makes sense that in >1st C. C.E. Palestine divorce would be condemned because in that >chronotope divorce was a thing which husbands would enact to the great >disadvantage of the wives and at no real loss to the husband and because >condemning divorce was a correct step in the direction of enforcing the >understanding that the sexes should be equal; but it also makes sense that >in 20th C. C.E. Europe and North America divorce should be allowed, >because the net result for the women concerned is much more positive. > The reader may take it that I am saying that a thing may be called >true that is not absolutely true but is the correct thing in a given >situation in order to arrive at what is true from a more advanced >perspective. This is like saying that if I wish to head east by ship and I >am in the Panama Canal, it is right for me to be going northwest (an atlas >will confirm this for the curious). Yes, I do mean to say that. After all, >our judgements of truth are based entirely on the a prioris of our own >positions. Truth cannot but be positional (though obviously some things >are common to all positions as far as we know, e.g., that gravity works). >If I am standing to your left and we are both facing north, you will be on >my right. If I turn 180 degrees, you will be on my left, but still facing >north. But "right" and "left" are no less meaningful than "north" and >"south." And similarly, for a tradition, since the importance of >traditions--and especially religious ones--is their emotional, ethical and >spiritual value for the people concerned, quibbles over physical >verifiables are in general peripheral. Not meaningless, since physical >verification can affect emotional states (notably faith), but peripheral. > James Harbeck. > >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 14 16:29:54 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id QAA06504 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:29:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA21080 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:29:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA10372 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA10365 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:01:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.greenvillenc.com (root@[207.201.229.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA29158 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:00:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.201.229.21] (dialup-21.greenvillenc.com [207.201.229.21]) by ns1.greenvillenc.com (8.8.4/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA09659 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:02:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199712142002.PAA09659@ns1.greenvillenc.com> Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Art, Communication, & Tradition Date: Sun, 14 Dec 97 15:09:07 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: GWS Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: GWS Bailey Status: O Re. Marcus Verhaegh's >Can not the act of creating a work of art involve a perhaps quite >ambiguous form of pointing, of which we inherit the trace? A work might be >highly ineffective as a means of communicating relative to more >straightforward approaches, and what a work does might involve much more >than acting as such a means. But one can "really want to communicate" by >means of the work even if one at the same time has further >non-communicative goals for which, as I have earlier suggested, a basic >element of communication can play a crucial role. Ok . . . but my main problem with the general notion of modern art as a form of communication is that the vast majority of claims made about what specific works are communicating that are made by artists, art historians, critics, philosophers etc, seem to me entirely unsupported by the work or by facts about its historical context, in-so-far as said facts are accessible to us. Making up fictions about what art is communicating seems to be an artform-in-itself. Aside from presenting untruth as truth, pretending that modern works communicate when they do not generates two other problems: it sometimes distracts viewers from what a work really is doing when it is doing something of artistic value having nothing to do with communication, and/or it is used in an attempt to justify giving art status to objects that have no other artistic virtues than the virtue ascribed to them in saying they are communicating. - George __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 14 16:33:52 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id QAA07898 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA23629 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA10766 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA10759 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:28:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA01621 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.45 (srq05.netline.net [205.160.7.45]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA20624 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:15:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3493FB25.8A4@netline.net> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:29:10 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and Communication Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O A correction... CANTRIRB stated: > According to the former view, English says, "our minds represent images >depictively (in diagrammatic representations that specify the locations and >values of configurations of points in a space.)" According to the latter view, >English says, "the syntactical structure of mental imagery is also pictorial >and therefore disparate from the linguistic syntax that is processed in the >neo-cortex." By not creating a new paragraph, I must have made Tye’s division unclear. These quotes both refer to the pictorialists. The latter position was defined as “2) Descriptionalists are those that believe that mental images are represented propositionally (in sentential relationships).” CANTRIRB: > Now, the point at issue is whether these two schools of brain research >are or are not ignoring fundamental philosophic issues. Although neither can absolutely satisfy all philosophic questions and criticisms, I wouldn’t say that they are ignoring them. In fact, they have probably deferred to philosophical inquiry more than any other researchers in contemporary scientific history. As I mentioned earlier, Tye himself is a philosopher as are countless others dealing with these issues. CANTRIRB: >For one thing,theyignore the semantic distinction between that which >pictures or describes, namely the image, and that which is pictured or >described, namely the world. This is indeed, a very important matter in the study of perception. Once again, I don’t think that “they ignore” this issue. Just because I did not address it while paraphrasing Tye, it should not be assumed that it was not addressed. If I were to include everything in my explanation I would no longer be paraphrasing, I’d be xeroxing. Actually, I’ve received a large number of posts dealing specifically with this issue on another list that I subscribe to that consists of many perceptual researchers and philosophers. They can be found by doing a web-search for the Psyche-D archives. CANTRIRB: >Let us imagine a diagram picturing or depicting the world. Is the picture >or description true of the world? Or did a scientist make a mistake, say >conflating a spatio-temporal location (having spatio-temporal extent) >with a spatio-temporal point (lacking spatio-temporal extent)? If I am understanding you correctly, you are referring to the old “apples and oranges” dilemma here. If so, you are right... there are always questions about whether either one is being accidentally equated with the other. Philosophic inquiry is our best tool for catching scientists that are ignorantly or underhandedly treating the two as if they are the same thing. Perhaps this is all that our scientists are ever doing. I don’t even doubt this possibility. But even if science cannot ever hope to provide us with anything like absolute truths, it is still a useful endeavor. The most that a scientist can do is try and resolve inconsistencies (that may have been pointed out by a philosopher) to the best of her abilities. Roger Shepard is an example of a scientist that has considered the questions raised by many philosophers in respect to his experiments that involved the spatio-temporal issues that were mentioned. The gist of his findings in this area is that test subjects take longer to imagine rotating geometric images in direct correlation with the degree of rotation. His interpretation of the results is that since propositional representations would not depend on depictive structures there would be no reason why it would take proportionately longer to mentally rotate an image according to the degree of rotation. In other words, a propositionally structured sentential representation wouldn't require the process of rotating. Such a representation would not rely on the same in-between steps. (Please remember that I have paraphrased his position for the sake of brevity.) You may be questioning whether or not his position here requires a sleight of hand or an unreasonable leap. If so, you wouldn’t be alone but I think his experiments remain valuable whatever the case may be. BTW, Nigel Thomas, a web-friend of mine is a philosopher that offers an alternative to the arguments of both the descriptionalists and the pictorialists. On his site _ Imagination, Mental Imagery, Consciousness, Cognition: Science, Philosophy & History _ you can find excellent criticism of Tye’s book in a review that he authored and an alternative to the two aforementioned positions in his concise and informative manuscript _ Are Theories of Imagery Theories of Imagination? _. The address is: http://members.aol.com/njtthomas/index.htm best wishes, Glenn English __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 14 22:11:24 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id WAA13451 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:11:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA19337 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA16831 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA16824 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:08:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA14232 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0EL700J01KKRJ9@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:07:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:07:39 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Tradition and interpretation In-reply-to: <199712141915.OAA07961@ns1.greenvillenc.com> To: GWS Bailey Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O I can't imagine much of anyone finds happiness at the cost of truth desirable. The sticky question is, what is truth? I made a stab at addressing that in my last post. Another point of at least equal importance, however, is whether it is at all possible for a human to be true to all things and all ways in his/her purview. Truth and falsity simply cannot be treated as strictly logical, non-emotional matters, because humans are not strictly logical and non-emotional beings. When we consider truth to be that which is in accord with all of the a prioris operant in a given situation (for a given person at a given time), we must ask whether a given human's a prioris are all mutually consistent--whether all of the logical valuations tend in exactly the same directions as all the emotional valuations, for instance. If this were the usual case, ethical dilemmas and similar matters would be few and far between. In actual practice, we know that it is perfectly possible for two things which are logically incompatible to have the same emotional value for a given person. It may be objected that truth is simply not an emotional matter. This objection is hard to sustain right off the bat when we recognize the emotional attachment that we have to truth and falsity. But, to my sight, it washes out entirely when it is recognized that meaning is for humans something inseparable from emotional valuations. Consider how much time we spend watching and reading fictions which rehearse assorted paradigms of interpersonal relation and similar. Most of us can recognize a number of standard trends which weather dramatically different "objective" matter. These trends--a plot, say, which has love discovered, love opposed, love seemingly lost, love redeemed, or one which has a hopeful start foward, a sudden catastrophe, a misguided adventure in opposition, an epiphany of self-discovery, and a triumphant ending--are certainly not there in the main to teach us scientific data about the norms and mores of certain cultures or the statistical facts of warfare. More than we desire factual learning (a desire itself which is all too easily seen through to emotional underpinnings--in general, a need for mastery of one's world), we desire emotional learning, we desire to find what feeling comes after what other feeling and to be reassured that this or that down will have an ultimate up, and so on. So ubi veritas? I am certainly not saying that empirical, "scientific" truth has no value; that which is "objectively" verifiable is clearly an anchor for one's self-assurance, and so it naturally becomes focal. But when we choose the external verities onto which to attach hopes and dislikes and so forth, we do not do so at all times in a manner consistent with what is logically entailed. The result is that a given act may be consistent with the a priori that hope and love are good but inconsistent with what logically follows from other things the person holds. I'm thinking of an example, oddly perhaps, from _The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_, wherein Huck feels differently for the escaped slave (oh what was his name) than he has been taught is correct; but I'm sure there are far more apropos examples which are on vacation for me today. If humans were as steady and consistent as the physical world we observe, this would not be an issue. But we are not, and "truth" is, after all, something that only exists because we perceive it. And since it is inseparable from the perceivers, the tendencies and perceptual and cognitive foundations of those perceivers are all-important. If for the sake of brevity I've made any statements that seem ridiculously fallacious, just imagine that what I really meant is of course what you know to be true, and I just didn't express it well. (That would also be a welcome break from the usual mode of reaction.) James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Dec 15 04:43:49 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id EAA12490 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:43:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA31203 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id DAA23577 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id DAA23570 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA19490 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.45 (srq07.netline.net [205.160.7.47]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA04281 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:22:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3494A55A.44ED@netline.net> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:37:56 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: depiction and description Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O CANTRIRB: > "To say that depiction is by pictures while description is by passages >is not only to beg a good part of the question but also to overlook the fact >that denotation by a picture does not always constitute depiction; for example, >if pictures in a commandeered museum are used by a briefing officer to stand >for enemy emplacements, the pictures do not thereby represent these >emplacements." -- LANGUAGES OF ART p. 41 (1st ed.) > How could brain science distinguish in this case between denotation, >depiction, and representation? Even after double checking the dictionary (World Book) definitions of these three terms, I’m not sure that they have distinct meanings in the aforementioned context. Unless perhaps they are unusually defined (jargonized) elsewhere in the text, they seem to be three ways of saying *symbolization*. Therefore, I don’t know what is said by “the fact that denotation by a picture does not always constitute depiction”. Isn’t this saying that symbolization by a picture does not always constitute a symbolic representation? If so, isn’t this a nonsensical claim? With “if pictures in a commandeered museum are used by a briefing officer to stand for enemy emplacements, the pictures do not thereby represent these emplacements” I am similarly confused. How could they both “stand for” and “not thereby represent” at the same time? I think that “pictures” is being used to convey two separate functions of the same objects under two different levels of attention. When the pictures were standing for enemy emplacements, they represented enemy emplacements. In that capacity, the pictures might as well have been rocks or chairs if their pictorial content was irrelevant to that function. When the pictures are standing for their artistic content, they represent that content. In this context they are no longer functioning as enemy emplacements. Empirically, cognitive science does constantly face problems because of our tendency to change the focus of our attention (our minds wander). As with any experimentalists, they try to create as many controls as possible such as presenting images in isolation without peripheral distractions, but they are, of course, far from perfect. Glenn (not Gordon ;^) English __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Dec 15 01:39:33 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id BAA21268 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:39:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA03460 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id XAA20475 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA20468 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:58:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA02721 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:58:02 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IR6KBJT0SW9BWRF7@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:59:39 EST Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:59:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: aesthetics: depiction and description To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IR6KBJT3MQ9BWRF7@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" X-VMS-Cc: "cantrirb@buffalostate.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O Thank you, Gordon English, for pointing out that philosophical sem- tics is, indeed, one of the philosophic issues addressed by brain research. The reason that I expressed some skepticism over the matter was not that I pretend to any great expertise in either brain science or philosophical sem- antics but rather that I did not see the aesthetic relevance. Philosophical semantics has been made relevant to aesthetics by Nelson Goodman, as you know. "To say that depiction is by pictures while description is by passages is not only to beg a good part of the question but also to overlook the fact that denotation by a picture does not always constitute depiction; for example, if pictures in a commandeered museum are used by a briefing officer to stand for enemy emplacements, the pictures do not thereby represent these emplacements." -- LANGUAGES OF ART p. 41 (1st ed.) How could brain science distinguish in this case between denotation, depiction, and representation? __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Dec 15 01:38:47 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id BAA21061 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA21665 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id AAA20671 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:06:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id AAA20664 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from graf.cc.emory.edu (graf.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.44]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA11096 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:05:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mverhae.resnet.emory.edu (GA-h12.resnet.emory.edu [170.140.88.76]) by graf.cc.emory.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9-950630.01osg-itd.null) with SMTP id AAA23854; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:00:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971215000452.006b0e44@pop3.service.emory.edu> X-Sender: mverhae@pop3.service.emory.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:04:52 -0500 To: p-peters From: Marcus Verhaegh Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Art, Communication, & Tradition Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu In-Reply-To: <34933BC9.1E21F6BE@p-peters.demon.nl> References: <3.0.3.32.19971213153105.006b2c8c@pop3.service.emory.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Marcus Verhaegh Status: O Re Philip Peters comments: 1. I am not sure why you mention that an artwork does not have only one valid interpretation--that coinciding with the artist's intentions. But it should be clear that neither I nor, so far as I know, anyone else on the list has asserted anything to the contrary. 2.. Your point that knowing what was meant to be communicated is not terribly important in the case of visual art--or at least that not being sure about it isn't--is not one I'll take issue with here. (Not that I agree with the notions that trying to understand artists intentions is always otiose, or always otiose when one is considering artistic issues proper.) Your argument as I understand it--and please correct me if I am wrong--is not based on a critique of concepts of communication which have been advanced, or in criticism of the idea that communication can play a crucial role in how an artwork works, but in the position that communication just doesn't happen to play this role in (Western "high"?) visual art . I do not take this to be an invalid line of argument. I am, however, at present just not that interested in considering it on this list. Als voor het overige deel--en excuses voor mijn nederlands: Het maakt helemaal niks uit dat we weinige documentatie van de bedoelinged van dode kunstenaars hebben. De woorden van kunstenaars zijn net zo open voor interpretatie als hun werken. Voor mij betekent deze feit dat, andersom, de werken zijn open om als communicatieobjecten op te vaten. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Dec 15 15:26:39 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA08394 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA28123 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA08953 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA08942 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA16015 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:05:03 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IR7C6HD2GW9BWQ04@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:06:18 EST Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:06:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: aesthetics: depiction and description To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IR7C6HDJF69BWQ04@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" X-VMS-Cc: "cantrick@buffalostate.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O In reply to Glenn English, it is true that one can't grasp the import of Nelson Goodman's theory of symbols simply by consulting dictionary definitions of symbols. The larger question is whether brain science has ignored the philosophical semantics of one of the best known philosophers of the 20th century. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Dec 16 13:25:06 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA23860 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA30379 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:25:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA09404 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA09397 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:29:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id KAA24833 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL7-2-ASYNC-09.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA02208; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:28:32 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199712141915.OAA07976@ns1.greenvillenc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:25:49 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O >BTW, I just asked >>> >>>What's the difference between decoding signs and just plain old reading? One references the act of deciphering-- to _make_ out the meaning of.... while the other (eading) refers to _ getting_ the meaning of.... Making and getting are not one in the same in. Making is to bring into being or cause and getting is to recieve or obtain. It ifor these reasons that in this case that I find ordinary phrases like "interpreting marks" fail because they do not commit the user to account for either what is being interperted the "marks" ( though the marks are never interpertable but only decipherable) nor the acts that such a practice consists of. While I agree that translating (decoding) marks is distinct from interpreting the specifics of the message encoded ithrough those marks and is yet still different than the act of attributing that interpretation to a given user ( who you refer to as the speaker) of that system of representation (mark making,) It seems to me that the metalanguage that has been built up around linguistics and semiotics keeps us conscious of what we are engaged when we "encode" and "decode" Messages. Itis a way to keeps us sensitive to distinction between believing the assumption that there is such a thing as meaning which resides in things (for example paintings or music) in which we need to merely retrieve its contents or message by reading it. Decoding in this case brings with it a self awareness and acknowledgment that it is we who act on things. David Goldblatt has in his recent ....writings proposed that all interpertation is an act of ventriloquism -- we engage in the act of deluding ourselves into believing that things speak to us. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Dec 16 15:25:06 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA08430 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:25:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA17903 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA13317 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:33:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA13310 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from postbox.uark.edu (postbox.uark.edu [130.184.7.32]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA03134 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.184.141.198] ([130.184.141.198]) by postbox.uark.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA14372 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:32:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:32:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: cdetels@comp.uark.edu (Claire Detels) Subject: Aesthetics: committees on education Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cdetels@comp.uark.edu (Claire Detels) Status: O To ASA members: As Chairs of the Committees on Aesthetics and Young People and Aesthetics and Higher Ed, Cynthia Rostankowski and I are conducting an informal canvas of ASA members on whether they would approve, object, or ______(fill in the blank) to the idea of joining these committees into one Committee on Aesthetic Education. This idea was discussed and approved at the Santa Fe meeting of the Com. on Higher Ed, and if the membership seems comfortable, we plan to put it forward to the ASA Board. Our reasons are that many of the education issues we address have to do with higher ed and lower ed and that we would improve our effectiveness if we were able to address them together--and to cover aesthetic education outside schools and colleges as well. In fact, the committees have joined together frequently for panel presentations in the past, and most attendees of the committee meetings are the same for both groups. Any comment or advice out there in cyberspace? Claire Detels Claire Detels Dept. of Music, U Arkansas Fayetteville AR 72701 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 17 03:21:24 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id DAA08722 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 03:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA27996 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 03:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA03042 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA03035 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id BAA18147 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:31:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL3-ASYNC44.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA06888; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:31:32 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3494A55A.44ED@netline.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:29:01 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: depiction and description Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O > >> How could brain science distinguish in this case between denotation, >>depiction, and representation? Dear Glenn They are two different forms of *symbolization* and representation is the category that circumscribe them, they are not three differentways to *symbolization* SAUL __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 17 17:50:35 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA26085 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:50:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA22313 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:50:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA23684 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:43:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA23677 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA01581 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:42:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.19 (srq19.netline.net [205.160.7.19]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA07373 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:29:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3497F320.8DE@netline.net> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:43:55 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: depiction and description Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O >Dear Glenn >They are two different forms of *symbolization* and representation is >the category that circumscribe them, they are not three differentways to >*symbolization* >SAUL Yes, good point. That is why I qualified my statement by saying “I’m not sure that they have distinct meanings in the aforementioned context.” In the Goodman quote, “if pictures in a commandeered museum are used by a briefing officer to stand for enemy emplacements, the pictures do not thereby represent these emplacements,” it seems that the term “symbolize” could replace the term “represent” without significantly altering the original meaning. I have no problem with the idea that representation is the category that circumscribes both depiction and denotation. Glenn __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 17 13:32:43 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA10182 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:32:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA04739 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:32:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA11789 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:02:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA11782 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:02:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from velvet.lakenet.no (velvet.lakenet.no [194.19.15.10]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA30649 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:01:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [194.19.15.52] (34r0-52.lakenet.no [194.19.15.52]) by velvet.lakenet.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA05086 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:03:20 +0100 X-Sender: kunst@mail.lakenet.no Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:05:57 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: be@kunstinnsikt.no (KunstInnsikt) Subject: Aesthetics: The 3rd International Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id LAA11783 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: be@kunstinnsikt.no (KunstInnsikt) Status: O KunstInnsikt (ArtInnsight) is an electronically (fax/e-mail) distributed Norwegian magazine on art and artlife. Since it is exclusively published in Norwegian, we won´t go into further details, except that the editors of the mentioned magazine are about to paint a picture. The picture will measure approx. 2.5x3.5 meters. It will portray the annual congress of the Norwegian Labour Party of 1922, which resulted in the split between the bulk of the norwegian Labour-movement and Moscow, over the controvercy over the demands of the Soviet-initiated 3rd International of 1920. Historically this incident had contemporary parallels in most industrial countries outside Soviet Russia. It marks the definitive end to any realistic hopes/fears that the Bolshevik revolution would spread to Western Europe and the industrial world, and it marks the beginning of the non- and anti communist social-democratic labour parties and governments which has dominated post-war Europe, especially the Scandinavian countries. Relevant to the planned picture's aesthetical effect, is that the people who's likenesses are going to represent the persons present at the portrayed event, are those of artist, curators, gallerists, dealers etc. in the contemporary norwegian artworld. These people will be represented in their normal dress and accesories, placed in a context which otherwise represents the original historical event. Further, the painting will be executed in a style reminicent of the 19th century realists. We would greatly appreciate the help of the readers of the aesthetics-list in finding relevant reading and visual material relevant in producing this painting. We are looking for: - Painted images of parlamentary and similar (political meetings) situations, especially from the 19th century. - Information about the practice and theory of representing historical situations in contemporary settings (e.g. high-rennaisance representations of biblical scenes). - Any other information or tips you may find relevant. Best wishes, Bjonnulv Evenrud / KunstInnsikt __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 17 14:20:33 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA08657 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA26314 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA14772 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA14756 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id LAA28341 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:58:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL7-3-ASYNC-13.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA21993; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:58:44 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971217151443781.AAA429@[150.216.15.103]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:56:11 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Meaning Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O George the rules of chess are a event horizon the setting up of the board is only correct or incorrect in acord with the intention to blay that game but has no inherent correctness outside of that game-- the game itself constitutes a system as does language -- while I can not arbitrarily change the rules of chess just as I can not those of a given language -- both sets of rules constitute a code of behavior or use -- the fact that we have internalized those of language to the point where we imagined tham to be natural does not make getting f and the making one in the same same thing in that I canread hebrew but can not either make sense of what I have read or get its meaning in that I do not know the code but only the name and sound associated with its marks. George I suspect that you believe that the differentiations i have made are merely based on semantics, jargon or fashion -- I can assure you that since I read Wittgenstien, Ponty and Quinne in the early 70's I have made a clear distinction between reading and deciphering __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 17 15:49:30 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA27079 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:49:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA04392 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:49:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA17614 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA17607 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA28393 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:30:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA03261; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:30:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:30:13 -0800 (PST) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Meaning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O The empire of signs is out of control, and its ramparts have been breached. -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace < > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < > sequacious ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace < > hypermodern ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace < > imagery online ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace < Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 17 17:50:37 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA26104 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:50:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA28667 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA22112 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA22104 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:57:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id OAA28124 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:57:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL9-ASYNC14.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA31357; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:57:01 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:54:18 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Meaning Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O >The empire of signs is out of control, and its ramparts have been >breached. > Do you mean to write that: the ramparts of the emprie is a sign of control that has been breached or that the signs of control that are the empire's ramparts have been breached and by the way who is within and without these ramparts? __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 17 17:45:54 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA24317 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA18898 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA24171 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:55:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA24164 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA24682 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:54:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA10823; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:54:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:54:38 -0800 (PST) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: What Do You Mean? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O We have no time for simplistic bifurcations of modernism and postmodernism, or, high and low culture, and, indeed, any form of demarcation within the gamut of cultural production only weakens the potential of any theory. { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace < > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < > sequacious ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace < > hypermodern ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace < > imagery online ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace < Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Arnie Cox wrote: > >The empire of signs is out of control, and its ramparts have been > >breached. > > > >{ brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp > > Does that mean that efforts to define "post-modern-ism" can be understood > in one way as efforts to rebuild the ramparts? > > And on "communication", if I may move to a seemingly elementary level: What > is communication if not a sense of sharing and/or imparting? (That's from > the dictionary but also seems to reflect my own experience.) Then words > and art do not communicate, except by anthropomorphism - or Goldblatt's > "ventriloquism". People communicate via various and sundry media > (including Goldblatt's "dummies", I suppose!), including verbal and > non-verbal media (note, also, the privileging of "verbal" and "non-verbal = > other"). Then we can categorize communication according to kind, while > categorization according to "communication" and "not communication" would > rest on different (other!) premises. > > The belief in the rules of verbal communication works for us most of the > time, but legalese demonstrates the oft impotence or clumsiness of the > sign, as puns demonstrate the fun. I share James Harbeck's concern for > participation and charity in communication (if I haven't mistaken you, > James!), and I think their value has become very clear as this thread has > wound its way. With this in mind, we might ask what role these play in the > experience of the arts - that is, if we acknowledge participation and > charity (and/or the like) to be a prt of communication, to what extent are > these part of one's experience of the arts? > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 17 21:04:29 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA06117 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA11454 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA29948 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA29936 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:21:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk (hermes.ex.ac.uk [144.173.6.14]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA22993 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:20:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from dialup22 [144.173.6.222] by hermes via SMTP (AAA18658); Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:17:32 GMT From: Claire Launchbury To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: What Do You Mean? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:22:18 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Priority: NORMAL X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.1.1 Build (17) X-Authentication: IMSP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Claire Launchbury Status: O So what is it exactly that you DO mean? On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:54:38 -0800 (PST) { brad brace } wrote: > > We have no time for simplistic bifurcations of modernism and > postmodernism, or, high and low culture, and, indeed, any form of > demarcation within the gamut of cultural production only weakens the > potential of any theory. > > > { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp > > The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace < > > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < > > sequacious ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace < > > hypermodern ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace < > > imagery online ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace < > > Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc > Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg > Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html > > > On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Arnie Cox wrote: > > > >The empire of signs is out of control, and its ramparts have been > > >breached. > > > > > >{ brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp > > > > Does that mean that efforts to define "post-modern-ism" can be understood > > in one way as efforts to rebuild the ramparts? > > > > And on "communication", if I may move to a seemingly elementary level: What > > is communication if not a sense of sharing and/or imparting? (That's from > > the dictionary but also seems to reflect my own experience.) Then words > > and art do not communicate, except by anthropomorphism - or Goldblatt's > > "ventriloquism". People communicate via various and sundry media > > (including Goldblatt's "dummies", I suppose!), including verbal and > > non-verbal media (note, also, the privileging of "verbal" and "non-verbal = > > other"). Then we can categorize communication according to kind, while > > categorization according to "communication" and "not communication" would > > rest on different (other!) premises. > > > > The belief in the rules of verbal communication works for us most of the > > time, but legalese demonstrates the oft impotence or clumsiness of the > > sign, as puns demonstrate the fun. I share James Harbeck's concern for > > participation and charity in communication (if I haven't mistaken you, > > James!), and I think their value has become very clear as this thread has > > wound its way. With this in mind, we might ask what role these play in the > > experience of the arts - that is, if we acknowledge participation and > > charity (and/or the like) to be a prt of communication, to what extent are > > these part of one's experience of the arts? > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl ---------------------- Claire Launchbury University of Exeter 26 Culverland Road EX4 6JJ (01392) 273568 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 17 21:49:55 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA20444 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:49:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA05632 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:49:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA00936 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA00925 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from rho.ben2.ucla.edu (rho.ben2.ucla.edu [164.67.131.31]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA10302 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mypc (ts21-2.wla.ts.ucla.edu [164.67.20.159]) by rho.ben2.ucla.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA23662 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:03:25 -0800 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:03:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199712180103.RAA23662@rho.ben2.ucla.edu> X-Sender: kgarmoe@pop.ben2.ucla.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.1.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Kimberly Garmoe Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: What Do You Mean? Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Kimberly Garmoe Status: O As opposed to cultural consumption? This is supply side theory; top-down, centralized, hegemonic,if not actually edging towards totalitarian speech and ultimately intent on silencing opposition (here, under the rubric of 'demarcation'). Is this not the antithesis of postmodernist theory? At 12:54 PM 12/17/97 -0800, you wrote: > >We have no time for simplistic bifurcations of modernism and >postmodernism, or, high and low culture, and, indeed, any form of >demarcation within the gamut of cultural production only weakens the >potential of any theory. > > >{ brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp > > The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace < > > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < > > sequacious ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace < > > hypermodern ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace < > > imagery online ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace < > >Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc >Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg >Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html Kimberly Garmoe __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 17 23:59:01 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA27359 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA04151 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA03236 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:17:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA03223 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA03817 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0ELD002017RRJ3@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:16:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:16:39 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck Subject: Aesthetics: some antics To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O The umpire of signs has become incontinent, he has lasot control, there is no meaning to eb found in the ffusivce outpourings we are ruminating ex cathedra pronouncments and taking on faith that becuas one has read a thing that means on understands it When suddenly in the midst of ths discourse a light appears showing us by action rather than content what it is we are doing, for the cleverest among us have been posting postings that force us to stretch rather beyond the elastic of our usial discourse the charity of our nterpretative faculties (namely those of Arts and Humanities) so that ultiamtely when faced with a positng that feigns the appearandce of hasty writing and zero proofreading thus forcing us to guess something approaching ten to twenty percent of the smatic or one which is quirte evidntly an artistic work in its own right by its strong left-field tendency and odd resemblance to the mutterings of those one poasses on busy city streets who are coursing their disgust to the falling leaves of the air we come to realize that we ARE INDEED VERY FORGIVING LECTORS most of the time anyway. PLease remember to include th entirety of this posting in any replies, and the entirety of this posting and the reply in any replies to the reply, and the entirety of this posting and the reply and the reply to the reply in any replies to the replies. And lend me the charity to accept this as more an expression of a puckish mood than any real truculence. Or, well, don't, if you really don't want to. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 18 01:35:10 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id BAA18229 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA25879 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id AAA05330 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id AAA05323 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id AAA11598 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:01:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL7-3-ASYNC-06.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA07163; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:01:28 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:58:54 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Meaning Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O Brace wrote >I meant what I said. /:b and I responded I was afraid of that >-- > >On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Ostrow/Kaneda wrote: > >> >The empire of signs is out of control, and its ramparts have been >> >breached. >> > >> >> Do you mean to write that: the ramparts of the emprie is a sign of control >> that has been breached >> or that the signs of control that are the empire's ramparts have been >> breached >> and by the way who is within and without these ramparts? >> >> __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 18 03:51:05 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id DAA03774 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:51:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA07921 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id CAA07677 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:22:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id CAA07670 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:21:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (F5.hotmail.com [207.82.250.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id CAA03980 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 24599 invoked by uid 0); 18 Dec 1997 07:19:46 -0000 Message-ID: <19971218071946.24598.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 199.166.254.42 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:19:45 PST X-Originating-IP: [199.166.254.42] From: "Edwardo Verona" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: re:meaning Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:19:45 PST Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Edwardo Verona" Status: O >> >The empire of signs is out of control, and its ramparts have been >> >breached. Is this a good thing? Did the empire break out or break in. Were the walls containing the empire doing it in a safe benevolent way or were they obstructing a view of perhaps a sunset whose very ethics were brought into question in an earlier post? Were there words being oppressed by signage? Breaching is such a messy way of entering and exiting. Shouldn't a simple knock on the door or twist of the doorknob be enough? Whose the protaganist here? The breached or the breachers? Monty Verona ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 18 13:58:34 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA22790 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA17004 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:58:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA18170 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA18163 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:34:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (schools.eastnet.ecu.edu [150.216.8.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA23270 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA481 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:33:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Meaning Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 11:34:58 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19971218163344859.AAA481@[150.216.15.103]> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O > >The empire of signs is out of control, and its ramparts have been >breached. > Were breached by the 80's. The empire is gone. The barbarians rule. What body part have you mutilated lately (pierced, scarred, chopped off, burnt or tattooed) for the sake of "the sign?" Almost makes one wish for a return to Logical Positivism (I only said "almost"!). George >-- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 17 17:50:29 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA26051 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA21370 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA23601 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:39:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA23594 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:39:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from donald.uoregon.edu (donald.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.6]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA03475 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:38:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.223.150.142] (cisco-ts12-line10.uoregon.edu) by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #26538) with SMTP id <01IRA4AB0UWM91WC6P@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:38:44 PST Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:38:59 -0700 From: acox@oregon.uoregon.edu (Arnie Cox) Subject: Aesthetics: What Do You Mean? To: { brad brace } Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: acox@oregon.uoregon.edu (Arnie Cox) Status: O >The empire of signs is out of control, and its ramparts have been >breached. > >{ brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp Does that mean that efforts to define "post-modern-ism" can be understood in one way as efforts to rebuild the ramparts? And on "communication", if I may move to a seemingly elementary level: What is communication if not a sense of sharing and/or imparting? (That's from the dictionary but also seems to reflect my own experience.) Then words and art do not communicate, except by anthropomorphism - or Goldblatt's "ventriloquism". People communicate via various and sundry media (including Goldblatt's "dummies", I suppose!), including verbal and non-verbal media (note, also, the privileging of "verbal" and "non-verbal = other"). Then we can categorize communication according to kind, while categorization according to "communication" and "not communication" would rest on different (other!) premises. The belief in the rules of verbal communication works for us most of the time, but legalese demonstrates the oft impotence or clumsiness of the sign, as puns demonstrate the fun. I share James Harbeck's concern for participation and charity in communication (if I haven't mistaken you, James!), and I think their value has become very clear as this thread has wound its way. With this in mind, we might ask what role these play in the experience of the arts - that is, if we acknowledge participation and charity (and/or the like) to be a prt of communication, to what extent are these part of one's experience of the arts? Arnie ________________________________________________________________________ Arnie Cox "How but in custom and ceremony 1680 Arthur St are innocence and beauty born?" Eugene, OR 97403 (541) 344-4268 - W.B. Yeats acox@oregon.uoregon.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 18 03:51:05 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id DAA03775 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:51:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA29281 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA06909 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA06900 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from donald.uoregon.edu (donald.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.6]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA16321 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.223.150.130] (cisco-ts11-line15.uoregon.edu) by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #26538) with SMTP id <01IRAORLM2CW91WFEG@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:25:20 PST Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:25:36 -0700 From: acox@oregon.uoregon.edu (Arnie Cox) Subject: Aesthetics: What Do You Mean? To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: acox@oregon.uoregon.edu (Arnie Cox) Status: O After {brad brace} wrote > We have no time for simplistic bifurcations of modernism and > postmodernism, or, high and low culture, and, indeed, any form of > demarcation within the gamut of cultural production only weakens the > potential of any theory. Claire Launchbury wrote >So what is it exactly that you DO mean? "The" premise behind (beneath, before) this question seems to be that meaning can (always or sometimes or ever) be exactly communicated - which takes (holds, "is" based on, accepts) "the" premise that meaning can be exact when we want it to be, so long as we can find le (le) mot (mot) juste (juiced). We can point (as may have been pointed out one time earlier this year), but to ask exactly what I'm pointing at, or even the exact direction of this pointing, "is" to presume a world, given, with meanings given (Merleau-Ponty, if I'm not mispointing). I thought this was one of the ingredients in "the" postmodern stew. Still, I hope the pharmicist gets my prescription write; but I'm not sure I want my musicologist to get my music right. And I wouldn't mind watching {brad} point a little more. I thought that demarcating fictive limits could be part of a useful heuristic (if not a full-fledged theory), as long as our lens(es) keeps its (their, our) ability to adjust focus. But maybe even pointing "is" problematic? BTW (contra Kimberly Garmoe), I took {brad}'s comment to indicate an anti-hegemonic position. (Anyway, with regard to Claire Launchbury's initial query, this is related to why I especially liked the last chapter of Lawrence Kramer's book. Also David Lewin's "Music, Phenomenology, and Modes of Perception," _Music Perception_, 1988, I believe: lots of excellent pointings that I'm still following.) Arnie __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Dec 16 17:35:02 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA24558 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA12422 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA18947 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:13:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA18932 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from atl1.america.net (ns2.america.net [199.170.121.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA27058 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:12:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from wadowick (pm1-5.p-c-net.net [208.147.137.15]) by atl1.america.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09584 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:12:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:12:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712162012.PAA09584@atl1.america.net> X-Sender: wadowick@p-c-net.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: "James L. Wadowick" Subject: Aesthetics: page Numbering Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "James L. Wadowick" Status: O OK, I'm looking at Vol.2, p. 189 where it says to start fixing page numbers to click the Title Tool. I have no Title Tool on my palletts anywhere. Please advise how to assign and regulate page numbers. "Endangered Species" JaMar Music (Jim Wadowick) 215 Glenwood Ave. Troy, AL 36081 334-566-1664 E-mail: wadowick@p-c-net.net __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 18 21:04:06 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id VAA25678 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA28048 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA02995 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA02988 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA16092 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:31:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00477; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:59:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:59:47 -0800 (PST) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: What Do You Mean? In-Reply-To: <199712180103.RAA23662@rho.ben2.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Kimberly Garmoe wrote: > As opposed to cultural consumption? > > This is supply side theory; top-down, centralized, hegemonic,if not actually > edging towards totalitarian speech and ultimately intent on silencing > opposition (here, under the rubric of 'demarcation'). Is this not the > antithesis of postmodernist theory? Tolerance and charity guarantee the normality (in difference) of the message, hence its gratifying truth. { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace < > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < > sequacious ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace < > hypermodern ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace < > imagery online ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace < Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 19 02:37:58 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id CAA00113 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA23038 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA08983 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA08976 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id BAA27095 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:12:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL8-2-ASYNC-16.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/15Aug97-0256PM) id AA02209; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:12:04 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199712180103.RAA23662@rho.ben2.ucla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:09:17 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: What Do You Mean? Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O >On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Kimberly Garmoe wrote: > >> As opposed to cultural consumption? >> >> This is supply side theory; top-down, centralized, hegemonic,if not actually >> edging towards totalitarian speech and ultimately intent on silencing >> opposition (here, under the rubric of 'demarcation'). Is this not the >> antithesis of postmodernist theory? > >Tolerance and charity are the mark of susceptibility to manipulation when >dealing with oppurtunist. The question than is how and what is ethically >possible and how does one discern who they are dealing with . __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 19 04:13:14 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id EAA07202 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA30110 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id CAA10155 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id CAA10148 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mb05.swip.net (mb05.swip.net [193.12.122.209]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA11217 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from 130.244.156.35 (dialup156-1-35.swipnet.se [130.244.156.35]) by mb05.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA03614 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:50:00 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <349A1958.1A01@swipnet.se> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:51:04 +0200 From: Love Janson Organization: Lokomotiv Kommunikation X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02APPLE (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: T.E. Jessop X-URL: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl/net/aesthetics-list.html Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Love Janson Status: O In Hospers' book Aesthetics there is an article : The objectivity of aestetic value. The author is T E Jessop. I'm writing an essay about him but I havn't found any biographical information about him. Can anyone help me with this? Regards L. Janson Halmstad, Sweden __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 19 13:21:07 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA09291 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:21:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA30780 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:21:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA18626 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA18619 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:45:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA14014 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA10069; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:44:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:44:28 -0800 (PST) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: What Do You Mean? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O The normality of difference is the bulwark of their elitist culture, the antidote to their doubts. -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace < > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < > sequacious ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace < > hypermodern ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace < > imagery online ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace < Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Ostrow/Kaneda wrote: > >On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Kimberly Garmoe wrote: > > > >> As opposed to cultural consumption? > >> > >> This is supply side theory; top-down, centralized, hegemonic,if not actually > >> edging towards totalitarian speech and ultimately intent on silencing > >> opposition (here, under the rubric of 'demarcation'). Is this not the > >> antithesis of postmodernist theory? > > > >Tolerance and charity are the mark of susceptibility to manipulation when > >dealing with oppurtunist. The question than is how and what is ethically > >possible and how does one discern who they are dealing with . __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 18 17:15:40 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA17223 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:15:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA18434 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA25293 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA25286 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:47:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from donald.uoregon.edu (donald.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.6]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA01690 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:46:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.223.150.94] (cisco-ts9-line13.uoregon.edu) by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #26538) with SMTP id <01IRBGQVE5XC91WIFI@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:46:25 PST Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:46:44 -0700 From: acox@oregon.uoregon.edu (Arnie Cox) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: What Do You Mean? To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: acox@oregon.uoregon.edu (Arnie Cox) Status: O >> And I wouldn't mind watching {brad} point a little more... > >Hello Arnie; every 12 hours for the last three years isn't enough?... 8^) > >{ brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp > > The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace < > > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < > > sequacious ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace < > > hypermodern ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace < > > imagery online ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace < Ah! Shame on me - really! *That's* what all them lines point to! I think that I might have a look. Arnie __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 19 18:59:12 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA16425 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:59:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA27895 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:59:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA28530 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA28523 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from nefeli.forthnet.gr (nefeli.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.20]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA11880 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp-mar217.ath.forthnet.gr (ppp-mar245.ath.forthnet.gr [194.219.224.24]) by nefeli.forthnet.gr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA22301 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:04:46 +0200 (EET) Received: by ppp-mar217.ath.forthnet.gr with Microsoft Mail id <01BD0CE3.9E0CF240@ppp-mar217.ath.forthnet.gr>; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:07:18 +0200 Message-ID: <01BD0CE3.9E0CF240@ppp-mar217.ath.forthnet.gr> From: dd To: "'aesthetics@indiana.edu'" Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:31:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id SAA28524 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dd Status: O Web artwork E-mailed by Dimos Dimitriou Hallo, I construct a new web artwork, about web. Web, either as a communication mediated object, either as an amount of non sense objects, is embodied as an expansion of the concept of the space. The space is no more a concentrated radial expansion of me, but a multi centered mediations. We are deeply concentrated to the others conceptions, to an open dispersion of our immovable conception of space. A continuous movement is embodied as an everyday new articulation of what we could be. http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/addfield/ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 19 18:59:00 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id SAA16405 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA22812 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:58:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA28217 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA28210 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:43:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA15906 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:42:29 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IRD7EEM8289C0VJ2@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:44:43 EST Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:44:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: Jessop To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IRD7EEMBTU9C0VJ2@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" X-VMS-Cc: "cantrirb@buffalostate.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O In reply to the query about Jessop, I recall meeting him at the annual meetings of the American Society for Aesthetics during the late 1960's or early 1970's. He was at that time at the end of his career, and was a faculty member at the State University of New York at Albany. No doubt a letter to the chairperson of the philosophy department there would elicit additional inform- ation. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 19 20:11:31 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA26322 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA13328 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA29448 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:55:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA29435 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:55:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA03686 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:54:30 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IRD9VPYM349C0CHS@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:56:43 EST Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:56:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: t.e.jessop To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IRD9VPYOWY9C0CHS@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" X-VMS-Cc: "cantrirb@indiana.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O Following up my reply to Love Janson of Sweden who requested informa- tion on t.e. jessop, I am embarrassed to confess that in haste I confused t.e.jessop with bertram jessup. The latter has an article in the Rader anthology, 5th ed., co-authored with Melvin Rader. The latter is the jessup I knew. I never knew t.e.jessop and can furnish no information about him. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 19 23:20:22 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA17868 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:20:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA17667 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:20:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA01622 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:47:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA01615 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:47:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk (hermes.ex.ac.uk [144.173.6.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA28110 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:46:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from dialup17 [144.173.6.217] by hermes via SMTP (CAA23015); Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:43:22 GMT From: Claire Launchbury To: Aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: t.e.jessop In-Reply-To: <01IRD9VPYOWY9C0CHS@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:48:10 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Priority: NORMAL X-Mailer: Simeon for Win32 Version 4.1.1 Build (17) X-Authentication: IMSP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Claire Launchbury Status: O Wanker! On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:56:43 -0500 (EST) CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU wrote: > Following up my reply to Love Janson of Sweden who requested informa- > tion on t.e. jessop, I am embarrassed to confess that in haste I confused > t.e.jessop with bertram jessup. The latter has an article in the Rader > anthology, 5th ed., co-authored with Melvin Rader. The latter is the jessup > I knew. I never knew t.e.jessop and can furnish no information about him. > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl ---------------------- Claire Launchbury University of Exeter 26 Culverland Road EX4 6JJ (01392) 273568 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 19 23:19:06 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id XAA17698 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA07118 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA02019 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:21:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA02012 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id WAA01460 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.reed.edu [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.98 1997-Oct-16 #40) id ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:20:23 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4516051@isis.reed.edu> Date: 19 Dec 97 19:20:23 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Aesthetics: Jessop/Jessup To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O 'CANTRIRB' writes that he or she had confused T. E. Jessop with B. E. Jessup. The late Bertram Jessup taught at the University of Oregon for many years and indeed has an article in Melvin Rader's old anthology. Jessup was the person who, for better or worse, drew me into philosophy as an undergraduate and was my M.A. thesis adviser. I was his colleague for three years when I returned to Oregon to teach. Jessup was a student at Berkeley of another nearly forgotten philosopher/aesthetician, Stephen Pepper (World Hypotheses), who, I believe, also did some work in aesthetics. All good wishes, Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 20 14:04:05 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA22062 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA18072 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA09325 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA09318 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA07657 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0ELI008010LV9X@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:29:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:29:55 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication (fwd) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O Saul Ostrow has asked me to forward this missive of his (a reply to my first salvo on communication etc.), to which I replied (first to him and then to the list); he deleted his copy. This was a while back on the thread, but may still be of interest. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 00:38:01 -0500 From: Ostrow/Kaneda To: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication Dear James Harbeck. Good and bad art has little or nothing to do with individual taste , this is a judgement that resides within the terms of the social ie that art which is in some manner performative -- if anything modernism sought to remove art from the domain of individual taste and seemingly succeeded to do so conceptually though their tends to be a r recidivist tendency to equat good with taste. What is good for art has to do withthat which either maintains, recuperates redeems or expands its territories, conceptually, expressionistically or experientially. While there may be no such thing as non art there is definitively bad art, fashionable art, sophmoric art, banal art, undesirable art and oppurtunistic art as wellas good art, interesting art, challenging art and on rare occassions great art. none of these are merely in the eye of _a_ beholder, but are determined by complex means within a discourse network that is framed and reframed by every proposition that is deemed to be successful art Beyond this everything you propose concerning expression and communication constitute a nearly moronic subjectivism in that it lacks reflexivity. To inflict sadness on another is not to communicate but to induce pathos or sympathy-- this is a manipulation and as such you seeminglyu haveconfused manipulation and communication-- I do not believe that you believe art to be manipulative -- you seem to sincere for that though such romanticism more often that not leads to the notionthat any effect is a desirable effect. If I were you I would rethink what I have writen , read it carefully. Does it actually reflect what you desire from art? What you have experienced? or is it just another semanti/ ideological construction which when examined rings hollow Saul Ostrow Editor of "Critical Voices in Art, Theory and Culture" Pubished by G+B Arts International Co-editor, Lusitania Press Art Editor, Bomb Magazine __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 21 01:20:36 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id BAA16859 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:20:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA26198 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:20:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id XAA16689 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA16682 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:44:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailer.fsu.edu (mailer.fsu.edu [128.186.6.122]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA12872 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:43:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (slifschi@localhost) by mailer.fsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21442; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:43:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:43:32 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen Lifschitz X-Sender: slifschi@mailer To: James Harbeck cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Stephen Lifschitz Status: O Is the posting below the actual syntax submitted? Stephen Lifschitz (Tivo) On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, James Harbeck wrote: > Saul Ostrow has asked me to forward this missive of his (a reply > to my first salvo on communication etc.), to which I replied (first to him > and then to the list); he deleted his copy. This was a while back on the > thread, but may still be of interest. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 00:38:01 -0500 > From: Ostrow/Kaneda > To: James Harbeck > Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication > > > Dear James Harbeck. > Good and bad art has little or nothing to do with individual taste , this > is a judgement that resides within the terms of the social ie that art > which is in some manner performative -- if anything modernism sought to > remove art from the domain of individual taste and seemingly succeeded to > do so conceptually though their tends to be a r recidivist tendency to > equat good with taste. What is good for art has to do withthat which > either maintains, recuperates redeems or expands its territories, > conceptually, expressionistically or experientially. While there may be no > such thing as non art there is definitively bad art, fashionable art, > sophmoric art, banal art, undesirable art and oppurtunistic art as wellas > good art, interesting art, challenging art and on rare occassions great > art. none of these are merely in the eye of _a_ beholder, but are > determined by complex means within a discourse network that is framed and > reframed by every proposition that is deemed to be successful art > Beyond this everything you propose concerning expression and communication > constitute a nearly moronic subjectivism in that it lacks reflexivity. To > inflict sadness on another is not to communicate but to induce pathos or > sympathy-- this is a manipulation and as such you seeminglyu haveconfused > manipulation and communication-- I do not believe that you believe art to > be manipulative -- you seem to sincere for that though such romanticism > more often that not leads to the notionthat any effect is a desirable > effect. > If I were you I would rethink what I have writen , read it carefully. Does > it actually reflect what you desire from art? What you have experienced? > or is it just another semanti/ ideological construction which when examined > rings hollow > > Saul Ostrow > Editor of "Critical Voices in Art, Theory and Culture" > Pubished by G+B Arts International > Co-editor, Lusitania Press > Art Editor, Bomb Magazine > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 21 11:14:49 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id LAA12263 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:14:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA08379 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:14:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA20733 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 10:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA20726 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 10:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix1.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (unix1.it-datacntr.louisville.edu [136.165.4.27]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA06047 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:59:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (root@homer.it-datacntr.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by unix1.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA34134 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:59:23 -0500 Received: from default (ppp0141.remote.louisville.edu [136.165.221.42]) by homer.louisville.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21081 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:59:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: homer.louisville.edu: Host ppp0141.remote.louisville.edu [136.165.221.42] claimed to be default Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971221095827.008701e0@homer.louisville.edu> X-Sender: paalpe01@homer.louisville.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:58:27 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Philip Alperson Subject: Aesthetics: Richard Wollheim Lectures Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Philip Alperson Status: O Professor Richard Wollheim, whose influential works in aesthetics include Art and Its Objects (1968), On Art and the Mind (1972), and Painting as an Art (1987), will be speaking at four schools in the lower-midwest-upper-south-Ohio/Kentuckiana region in April 1998. The tentative schedule is as follows: 6 April: University of Kentucky 7 April: University of Louisville 8 April: University of Cincinnati 9 April: Indiana University. If you think you might be in the region and would like further information on the talks as plans firm up, please let me know. Thanks. Philip Alperson ____________________________________________________ Philip Alperson The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism The Commonwealth Center for the Humanities and Society Department of Philosophy, University of Louisville Tel.: 502.852.0458 JAAC: 502.852.4768 FAX: 502.852.0459 Web: http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/philosophy E-mail: paalpe01@homer.louisville.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Dec 22 13:34:48 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA02762 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:34:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA10455 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:34:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA10134 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:50:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA10121 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA10297 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:49:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA11531; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:49:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:49:44 -0800 (PST) From: { brad brace } To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, James Harbeck wrote: > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 00:38:01 -0500 > From: Ostrow/Kaneda > To: James Harbeck > Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication > > ... > good art, interesting art, challenging art and on rare occassions great > art. none of these are merely in the eye of _a_ beholder, but are > determined by complex means within a discourse network that is framed and > reframed by every proposition that is deemed to be successful art... This seems to be merely a weary, circular appeal for a 'revived' narrow-centrist, authentication procedure for art, that is presumably to be determined by select art-journalists qua 'experts.' Art has outgrown these (80's) inbred marketing ploys, but its old proponents presumably have little option but to 'keep-up appearances...' { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.wco.com/users/bbrace < > eccentric ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace < > sequacious ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace < > hypermodern ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace < > imagery online ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace < Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Dec 23 12:31:34 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id MAA14248 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:31:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA05072 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:31:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA04216 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:46:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA04209 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:46:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from nefeli.forthnet.gr (nefeli.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.20]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA27258 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp-mar11.ath.forthnet.gr (ppp-mar11.ath.forthnet.gr [194.219.200.111]) by nefeli.forthnet.gr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA02753 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:42:43 +0200 (EET) Received: by ppp-mar11.ath.forthnet.gr with Microsoft Mail id <01BD0FCA.874505E0@ppp-mar11.ath.forthnet.gr>; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:45:16 +0200 Message-ID: <01BD0FCA.874505E0@ppp-mar11.ath.forthnet.gr> From: dd To: "'aesthetics@indiana.edu'" Subject: Aesthetics: Web artwork Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:11:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id KAA04210 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dd Status: O E-mailed by Dimos Dimitriou Hallo, I construct a new web artwork, on a new web artwork, about web. New pages added by spectators' movement. New pages added by spectators' movement. Web, either as a communication mediated object, either as an amount of non sense objects, is embodied as an expansion of our common concept of the space. The space is no more a centrifugal radial expansion of me, but a multi centered mediations of others, that we embody by moving through them. The image we have for the space is related to articulations of others' actions we meet daily. The others' mediations of the space are the concretized dynamical paths, for new space's images, activated by everybody. We are expanding our heavy-to-move conception of the space. We are deeply concentrated to the others conceptions. We are concentrated to an every-moment open dispersion. The dimension of the space is referred exactly to the number of acting people now. We embody the space as our continuous movement, to everyday new articulations. The space is in an articulated movement. URL http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/addfield/ New pages added by spectators' movement. New pages added by spectators' movement. New pages added by spectators' movement. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 24 10:26:13 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id KAA01118 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA19313 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:26:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id IAA03358 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:56:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id IAA03348 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA00709 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:55:21 -0500 (EST) From: Idolgossip Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:51:48 EST To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Cc: amn@igc.apc.org, sqs2081@is4.nyu.edu, Andy@tla.com, SPerlmu9@aol.com, tstaffor@nimbus.ocis.temple.edu, Miker@biddle.cheyney.edu, Chiroronin@aol.com, criminalprofiling@sparklist.com, Echo1E1@aol.com, bowman@thebowman.com, ritual-studies@columbia.edu, cdolan@notes.cc.bellcore.com, Idolgossip@aol.com, ALAN.BELLIS@worldnet.att.net Subject: Aesthetics: Santa Claus Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Idolgossip Status: O Is There a Santa Claus? I am pleased tp present the annual scientific inquiry into Santa Claus. 1) No known species of reindeer can fly. But there are 300,00 species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insects and germs, this does not completely rule out flying reindeer which ony Santa has ever seen. 2) There are 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the world. But since Santa doesn't (appear) to handle the Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15% of the total - 378 million according to Population Reference Bureau. At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. One presumes there's at least one good child in each. 3) Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west (which seems logical). This works out to 822.6 visits per second. This is to say that for each Christian household with good children, Santa has 1/1000th of a second to park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get back into the sleigh and move onto the next house. Assuming that each of these 91.8 million stops are evenly distributed around the earth (which of course we know to be false but for the purposes of our calculations we will accept) we are now talking about .78 miles per household, a total trip of 75-1/2 million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do at least once every 31 hours, plus feeding and etc. This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, 3,000 times the speed of sound. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man-made vehicle on earth, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per second - a conventional reindeer can run, tops, 15 miles per hour. 4) The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium sized lego set (2 pounds), the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is invariably described as overweight. On land, conventional reindeer can pull no more than 300 pounds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" (see point #1) could pull ten times the normal amount, we cannot do the job with eight, or even nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload - not even counting the weight of the sleigh - to 353,430 tons. Again for comparison this is four times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth. 5) 353,000 tons traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air resistance - this will heat the reindeer up in the same fashion as spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 quintillion joules of energy. Per second. Each. In short, they will burst into flames almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer behind them, and create deafening sonic booms in their wake. The entire reindeer team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second. Santa, meanwhile, will be subjected to centrifugal forces 15,500.06 times greater than gravity. A 250-pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of the sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force. In conclusion - If Santa ever did deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now. Merry Christmas to All and to All a Good Night! Dawn Perlmutter __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 24 14:52:26 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id OAA28206 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA06275 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA11431 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:24:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA11402 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:24:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from uz.ComCAT.COM (uz.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.8]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA10797 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:23:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldinepress.com (a028.COMCAT.COM [207.86.230.28]) by uz.ComCAT.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8/sol2/mh/19971205) with ESMTP; id NAA17343; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.22); 24 Dec 97 13:20:27 -0500 Received: from spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.23); 24 Dec 97 13:19:48 -0500 From: "AP Postmaster" Organization: The Aldine Press, Ltd. To: "Hellas Editorial Board" , "H72" , "Ancient" , "LogicLists" , "Logic" , fjachorao@mail.telepac.pt, "Literature" , PALeaders@ComCAT.COM, "Literary Theory" , "Philosophy" Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:19:32 -0500 X-Distribution: Moderate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: TELICA: An on-line discussion Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "AP Postmaster" Status: O The PERPETUAL ARISTOTLE announces a new discussion list, TELICA, an on-line forum for discussion of the theory of fine art. Discussion on TELICA is paced by periodic postings of a question by the moderator. A total of 150 of these questions will be posted beginning in early 1998. The exact date of the first posting will be announced to the list in early January. The philosophical vocabulary of the questions is Aristotelian. The forum is intended to encourage disciplined argument in the Aristotelo-scholastic manner. CONTRIBUTIONS Each subscriber to TELICA is required to submit one substantive contribution to the discussion each month. Subscribers who, in the estimation of the moderator, fail to participate in the discussion substantively will be unsubscribed. This rule will be applied seriously, not strictly or pedantically. A NOTE ON THE TITLE OF THE FORUM The title of the forum, TELICA, is a coinage fashioned after the Greek term *telos,* "end." It is employed as a generic name of things such as paintings, poems, musical compositions and so forth that today are often collectively called "artworks" or "works of fine art." The choice of this term reflects a view that such terms as "fine art" and "aesthetic" for different reasons are ill-conceived DISCUSSION ETIQUETTE Subscribers are asked to avoid addressing one another in the second person on-list, and to avoid mentioning persons, and in particular other subscribers, save as the authors of philosophical texts or arguments. A fuller explanation of this protocol is found in the welcome message to the list. SUBSCRIBING, UNSUBSCRIBING and DIGEST To send a message to the list, address it to: telica@aldinepress.com To send messages to the listserv, address it to: maiser@aldinepress.com To remove yourself from the list, address a message to the listerv (maiser@aldinepress.com) with the following single sentence in the message body: unsub telica To set your mail option to DIGEST, address a message to the listerv (maiser@aldinepress.com) with the following single sentence in the message body: SET TELICA DIGEST To reset your mail option to its original state, address a message to the listerv (maiser@aldinepress.com) with the following single sentence in the message body: SET TELICA NODIGEST To send a message to the list's moderator, Gerald Harnett, address it to: harnett@aldinepress.com To send a message to the director of the Perpetual Aristotle, Gerald Harnett, address it to: harnett@aldinepress.com ********************************************* __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 24 19:31:40 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id TAA17749 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA04173 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA18337 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:15:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA18330 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:15:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA11276 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-8 #23568) with SMTP id <0ELP00901V7LLQ@emerald.tufts.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:14:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:14:09 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication (fwd) In-reply-to: To: Stephen Lifschitz Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O The forwarded message from Saul Ostrow was not altered in any way from the form in which it was received (except for the usual addition of carets to the beginning of each line, done automatically by the forwarding mechanism). ...Since you asked. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 24 20:36:36 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA21277 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:36:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA18157 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA19928 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:32:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA19909 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:32:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA31358 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:31:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.122.237.65] (DIAL5-ASYNC45.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU [128.122.237.65]) by is2.nyu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08341 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:31:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:28:36 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication (fwd) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O > >This seems to be merely a weary, circular appeal for a 'revived' >narrow-centrist, authentication procedure for art, that is presumably to >be determined by select art-journalists qua 'experts.' Art has outgrown >these (80's) inbred marketing ploys, but its old proponents presumably >have little option but to 'keep-up appearances...' Society sets arts values, The qualities that I refer to are those of a tradition that was set into place long before the rethoric of "all is marker manipulation." the othe rpoint I make is Mr. Brace is that this holds true in any system of values that would make distinquistions. Of course we can ascribe to the two extremes of its all valueless or its all valuable-- but in this case these cases there is no reason to call it art. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Dec 24 20:38:05 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id UAA21314 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:38:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA14041 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:38:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA19982 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:35:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA19966 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA18867 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.122.237.65] (DIAL5-ASYNC45.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU [128.122.237.65]) by is2.nyu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08458 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:34:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:31:48 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Expression and communication (fwd) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O > The forwarded message from Saul Ostrow was not altered in any way >from the form in which it was received (except for the usual addition of >carets to the beginning of each line, done automatically by the forwarding >mechanism). ...Since you asked. > James Harbeck. > Sometimes, things get sent without having been edited. This was one of those things. While I stand by the content, the " post" syntactically could stand a re-write. SAUL __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 25 04:00:00 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id DAA11142 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 03:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA24530 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 03:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id CAA27051 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:30:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id CAA27044 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA05861 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:29:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.122.237.65] (DIAL1-ASYNC41.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU [128.122.209.61]) by is2.nyu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA29034 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:29:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:26:36 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Aesthetics: Re: revision concerning bbbrace's rhetoric Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O > >This seems to be merely a weary, circular appeal for a 'revived' >narrow-centrist, authentication procedure for art, that is presumably to >be determined by select art-journalists qua 'experts.' Art has outgrown >these (80's) inbred marketing ploys, but its old proponents presumably >have little option but to 'keep-up appearances...' Society sets arts values, The qualities that I refer to are those of a tradition that was set into place long before the rethoric of "all is marker manipulation." The othe point I make Mr. Brace is that this holds true in any system of values that make distinquistions concerning what is at any given moment is desired and that which would challenge such desires.. Of course we can ascribe to the two extremes: all valueless or allis equally valuable-- but in these cases there is no reason to call it art, but refer to or defer to the notion of taste. In such a case weare no longer engaged in constructiong a concept or a context but arguing subjectivally what appeals rather than representsor informs. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Dec 25 15:10:45 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA06222 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 15:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA23366 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 15:10:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA07442 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 13:36:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA07435 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 13:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from wil.lomellina.it ([194.184.17.3]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id NAA27919 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 13:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from wil.lomellina.it by wil.lomellina.it (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ta005635 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 19:40:53 +0000 Message-ID: <34A2A787.4C6C@lomellina.it> Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 19:35:53 +0100 From: Romolo Calciati X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Christmas message Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Romolo Calciati Status: O Dear members of ASA, I am a new member of ASA, from Mortara (Pavia), Italy. I am painter and sculptor, collaborator at the University of Urbino for Sociology of Art and I wish you Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Romolo Calciati __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 26 08:10:38 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id IAA18454 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA10152 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id GAA23465 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 06:44:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id GAA23458 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 06:44:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.melsa.net.id ([202.138.224.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA28329 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 06:42:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from yewe (ppp1-26.melsa.net.id [202.138.227.26]) by ns1.melsa.net.id (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA21250 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 18:41:39 +0700 (JVT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971226183909.007df480@melsa.net.id> X-Sender: yewe@melsa.net.id X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 18:40:11 +0700 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Yuswadi Saliya Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetico-pragmatic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Yuswadi Saliya Status: O Dear Aestheticians, I'm (an architect) still in the middle of investigating the local/indigenous-knowledge that pertains to vernacular architecture. It is generally understood that the construction of the verna-arch is based on or influenced by set of beliefs/religion, and also on/by aesthetic preferences. My line of thought, it seems, necessitates me to formulate both religious and aesthetical aspects (among many other factors) constituting technical/practical processes of the constuction. That is to say that I should "decompose" the religious/theological concept into its parts and components (so to speak) and see which one is related and contributive to the construction process as parts of the local knowledge in verna arch. I think, I must do the same thing with the aesthetical aspects. But, "something" bothers me: is it advisable to dissect religious/aesthetical experiences into practical purposes such as the ability to construct buildings? On the other hand, if I was indeed misled, what is it really that drives people to construct an unbelievably complex and intricate structures? Where did the knowledge and ability come from? Is there any theory where those pragmatics come from? Now, is it proper to call it aesthetico-pragmatic and religio-pragmatic? Am I asking completely wrong questions? Is there any book/research that deals with that/similar subject? Or anyone reachable thru e-mail? Anyone willing to discuss it? Well? TIA Distressed species, Yuswadi Saliya _____________________ Yuswadi Saliya Dept. of Architecture Institut Teknologi Bandung (ITB) Jl. Ganesha 10 Bandung 40132 INDONESIA __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 26 16:38:06 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id QAA20603 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA23418 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA02683 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA02664 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA26017 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:12:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.46 (srq06.netline.net [205.160.7.46]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA01129 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 14:58:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34A3C92A.6F22@netline.net> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:13:45 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication (fwd) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O Saul Ostrow stated: >Good and bad art has little or nothing to do with individual taste , and: >While there may be no such thing as non art there is definitively bad art, >fashionable art, sophmoric art, banal art, undesirable art and oppurtunistic >art as wellas good art, interesting art, challenging art and on rare occassions >great art. Two different percipients could not walk away with two different opinions from this list? If they did not agree, one of them was wrong? Can a person be wrong about her own experiences? Isn’t there a danger in that sort of “who ya gonna trust honey, me or your lyin’ eyes” approach? When someone looks at a work of op art, they may be wrong about some discrepancy between the actual and the apparent properties of the work, but they are not wrong about their experience. Are you saying that art is separable from the dynamics of experience and therefore taste? Here is the problem: if “good and bad art has little or nothing to do with individual taste,” a person could be wrong about her own opinion of a work of art. Since it isn’t reasonable to argue that her subjective experience is objectively wrong, it isn’t prudent to sweep the role of taste in art under the rug. S.O.: >determined by complex means within a discourse network that is framed and >reframed by every proposition that is deemed to be successful art How would this canonical framework escape the hopelessness of achieving the consensus that such a system would require? Who are the people doing the deeming? Artists? Aestheticians? Philosopher kings? This network criteria doesn’t seem to account for most art that comes from non-Western cultures. Are you saying that something such as African tribal art is in fact, either bad art or not “art” at all? S.O.: >What is good for art has to do withthat which either maintains, recuperates >redeems or expands its territories, conceptually, expressionistically or >experientially. Because you say so? Why is this belief any less paradigmatically subjective than another contradictory theory? I know that it’s hard to present a complete argument in this forum, but your appeal to objective truths that exist outside of the domain of taste seems not to be in any way guarded from simple deconstruction. Considering the extensive evidence of subjectivity that deconstructionists have shown about our scientific beliefs alone, how can it be argued that “art” of all things, is somehow governed by papal-like authorities that do not defer to taste? I think that deconstruction, although indispensable, is not enough in and of itself. We need paradigms to serve as anchors in what would otherwise be a disorienting sea of relativity. Science, religion, and art are all fantastically adept metaphorical systems that we employ for the sake of creating context in a mystifying world. Those systems are tools when we recognize their subjectivity at the paradigmatic stratum, and shackles when we don’t. When changing social factors render systemic beliefs no longer functional, it is time to reconstruct. Reconstruction entails replacing one construct of intra-consistent metaphors with another. Our ability to change keeps us vibrant. Our tendency to ignore the subjective paradigms at the foundations of our belief systems keeps us in the dark. Best wishes for the new year, Glenn English __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Dec 26 17:56:23 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id RAA25604 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:56:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA12827 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA04222 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA04214 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA04510 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.122.237.65] (DIAL7-ASYNC34.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU [128.122.175.54]) by is2.nyu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01985 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:37:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34A3C92A.6F22@netline.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:33:44 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication (fwd) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id QAA04215 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O Glenn English Wrote: > >Two different percipients could not walk away with two different opinions >from this list? If they did not agree, one of them was wrong? Can a person >be wrong about her own experiences? Isn’t there a danger in that sort of >“who ya gonna trust honey, me or your lyin’ eyes” approach? Yoou assume that the catagory of art has to do with individual experience rather than social and historical critieria -- therefor a work of art may be to someones taste but be totally insignificant to the larger discourse network that determines it as one a work of art and then a work of art that maybe of some significance to the categories by which art comes to be substantiated socially/ cultural which seems to extend beyond idividual subjectivity and at the same time informs it.Therefor ones personal judgment concerning their likes and dislikes is never wrong but their evaluation concerning the significance of a work of art may be. As I often tell my students: "There are things that I like that I know are not very good or significant, while there are things of significance that I do not like -- in the ong run my likes and dislikes are only of importance if they can be substantiated by some other means than my taste. > > >S.O.: >>determined by complex means within a discourse network that is framed and >>reframed by every proposition that is deemed to be successful art > >How would this canonical framework escape the hopelessness of achieving >the consensus that such a system would require? Two points on this ; For short hand sake I refer you to Dasnto. Secondly our connanical framework exists under constant revisement-- given that in western societywe aspire to be dynamic -- in other societies such consensus has often been achieved without resulting in hop[elessnes but merely stasis. > >Who are the people doing the deeming? Artists? Aestheticians? Philosopher >kings? I would also refer you to Stephen Melville's book Seams: art as >Philosophical Context, Published in the Critical Voices Series by G+B Arts >International. In the commentary by Jeremy Gilbert-Rolfe that accompanies >Melville's essay a the discourse between the art object, art history and >philosophy is discribed. This network criteria doesn’t seem to account for most art that comes from >non-Western cultures. Are you saying that something such as African tribal >art is in fact, either bad art or not “art” at all? It is not art in the western sense and for the most part is viewed as such do to Western imperialism.Read Tom McEviiley or James Clifford among others on this subject > > >S.O.: >>What is good for art has to do withthat which either maintains, recuperates >>redeems or expands its territories, conceptually, expressionistically or >>experientially. > >Because you say so? Why is this belief any less paradigmatically subjective >than another contradictory theory? Look to the 4 or 5 centuries of political cultural philosophical and art historical writings and practices that circumscribe and are inscribed upon our understanding and valuing of art. > >I know that it’s hard to present a complete argument in this forum, but your >appeal to objective truths that exist outside of the domain of taste seems >not to be in any way guarded from simple deconstruction. I make no claim for objective truth but purely that we look at art as a social practice -- that is as an institution Considering the >extensive evidence of subjectivity that deconstructionists have shown about >our scientific beliefs alone, how can it be argued that “art” of all >things, is >somehow governed by papal-like authorities that do not defer to taste? Here once again you mix apples and stones -- the society its values standards and their dominant ideology is the network I am talking about -- to this degree taste is a social construction and so is the idea that Art and the art object are one and the same thing. > >I think that deconstruction, although indispensable, is not enough in and of >itself. We need paradigms to serve as anchors in what would otherwise be >a disorienting sea of relativity. Science, religion, and art are all >fantastically >adept metaphorical systems that we employ for the sake of creating context >in a mystifying world. Those systems are tools when we recognize their >subjectivity at the paradigmatic stratum, and shackles when we don’t. > >When changing social factors render systemic beliefs no longer functional, >it is time to reconstruct. Reconstruction entails replacing one construct of >intra-consistent metaphors with another. Our ability to change keeps us >vibrant. Our tendency to ignore the subjective paradigms at the foundations >of our belief systems keeps us in the dark. Glenn The problem here is that it proposes that subjectivity and subjectivism are one in the same. There is also the problem of the chicken and the egg none of this takes place in a void. Still another the process of construction -- there is nothing to reconstruct is not as rational or self-conscious as you propose it is the result of numerous propositions battling it out both in theory and practice -- upon the body and consciousness of society and its members. I do agree that if one does not act self reflectively ie search out the origins of the premises ( master narratives) upon which we engage the world we will remain ignorant. Happy New Year SAUL __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 27 03:06:43 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id DAA24820 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA26716 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id AAA13731 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id AAA13721 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA14740 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:57:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.46 (srq06.netline.net [205.160.7.46]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA17201 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:44:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34A452DA.2358@netline.net> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:00:11 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Expression and communication (fwd) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O Saul Ostrow stated: >Yoou assume that the catagory of art has to do with individual >experience rather than social and historical critieria No, I think that social and historical criteria are built on individual experiences. A brick home may be greater than the sum of its bricks in the Gestalt sense, but the individual bricks remain significant to to the home that consists of their specific orientation. Likewise, individual experience remains intrinsic to any social practice. S.O.: >Two points on this ; For short hand sake I refer you to Dasnto. Danto? His views on taste are in plain contradiction with yours. Have you read his newest book, _ After the End of Art _ (1997) yet? His stance is a nearly polar opposite of the one that you have presented. A succinct example is his statement on p. 114, “To say that history is over is to say that there is no longer a pale history for works of art to fall outside of. Everything is possible. Anything can be art. And, because the present situation is essentially unstructured, one can no longer fit a master narrative to it. Greenberg is right: nothing has happened for thirty years. That is perhaps the most important thing to be said about art of the past thirty years. But the situation is far from bleak, as Greenberg’s cry of “Decadence!” implies. Rather, it inaugurates the greatest era of freedom art has ever known.” >It is not art in the western sense and for the most part is viewed as such >do to Western imperialism This too, is in stark contradiction with Danto who, on page 112 of _ After the End of Art _, states “The aesthete is at home everywhere, and the Baule mask or the Asanti figure hangs beneath the Pollock and the Morandi in the libraries of discriminating collectors the world round. Form is after all form, and once we are liberated from the Johnsonian disposition to stigmatize African art as barbaric, how easily we accept that the art of Africa rubs elbows with that of Paris or Milan.” S.O.: >Look to the 4 or 5 centuries of political cultural philosophical and art >historical writings and practices that circumscribe and are inscribed upon >our understanding and valuing of art. I have, and therefore I know that those circumscriptions are riddled with the effects of individual tastes. I agree that they “are inscribed upon our understanding and valuing of art,” but I hardly see that as evidence of their paradigmatic verity, as you have suggested. S.O.: >The problem here is that it proposes that subjectivity and subjectivism are >one in the same. No, I think that subjectivism is the theory that all knowledge is subjective. I don’t see where you got the aforementioned proposition from. Thank you for the citations, I hope to check them out. Glenn English __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Dec 27 08:41:12 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id IAA04129 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA14695 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id GAA19574 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id GAA19567 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:57:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from public.bta.net.cn (public.bta.net.cn [202.96.0.97]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA03445 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:56:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ab-1-74.bta.net.cn [202.99.63.78]) by public.bta.net.cn (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA14654; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:56:35 +0800 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971227195623.006a116c@public.bta.net.cn> X-Sender: jpgao@public.bta.net.cn X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:56:23 +0800 To: PHIL-LIT@postal.tamu.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Gao Jianping Subject: Aesthetics: Influence-China and West Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Gao Jianping Status: O Dear friends on the list, I am doing a research on the influence of Chinese art on the west, but it is difficult to collect materials in China. If anyone can offer help in this concern, say, recommend books, papers, to me, I will be deeply grateful. Many thanks, Gao Jianping ******************************************************************* Gao Jianping (Ph.D in Aesthetics, Uppsala University, Sweden) Associate Professor of the Institute for Literature, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences 100732, Beijing, P.R.China Tel.& fax: +86-10-64338286 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 28 06:01:06 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id GAA07877 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 06:01:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA05700 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 06:01:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id DAA11977 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 03:55:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id DAA11970 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 03:55:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA31172 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 03:54:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.122.237.65] (DIAL7-ASYNC18.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU [128.122.175.38]) by is2.nyu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA07531 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 03:54:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34A57D2F.7A2B@netline.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 03:49:41 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Ostrow/Kaneda Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Danto and taste Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id DAA11971 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ostrow/Kaneda Status: O >Hi Saul, > >You asked: >>Can you give an example of this notion> that social and historical >>criteria are built on individual experiences < rather than an " >>individual"s" experience being the product of often conflicting social >>(and here I will ad technological) and cultural criteria. > >Are you sure that you want to argue that there could be such things as >social and historical criteria without individual experiences? That just >seems silly. > >Of course an individual’s experience is influenced by conflicting social, >cultural, and technological criteria. But this doesn’t negate the idea >that social and historical criteria are built on individual experiences >as you have implied. Are you sure that you want to argue that the world begins anew with each individual and that we are not conditioned to be receptive to certain experiences orto judge them as being of greater value or lesser value? > > >S.O.: >>The phiilosopy of any philosopher or the theory of any theorist is the >>construction of a generalization based on individual experience but it >>is no one individuals experience > >So you agree? You can’t have it both ways. of course we can have it both ways, My point being what is formulated is not the experience of an individual but an individuals formulation of an experience that does not exist except in generalized terms. > > >S.O.: >>your analogy can not give equal significance to each variation that its >>materials are adapted to, > >Nor should it. yet you implied every brick was of equal importance > > >S.O. (on the Danto quotation): >>Two things I find no reference to taste here as a determinant but only that >>certain history which at one time made issue of art not art is over. > >I thought the quotation was pretty clear, but perhaps you needed greater >context. > >How’s this for direct: “Modernist art is art defined by taste, and created >essentially for persons of taste, specifically for critics.(From >Danto’s _ After the End of Art _ p. 111) > >I hope that you are not going to try to argue that *this* isn’t in >contradiction >with your original statements, such as, >>Good and bad art has little or nothing to do with individual taste. > As I said I suggested Danto only as relevent to the question of arts's conceptualization. The fact that he is of significance or is appropriate in one area doies not mean that I buy the wholeof his arguement. Yet once again if you read what you have quoted it identifies taste as collective rather than individual -- and for Danto this taste is specialized -- it is the domain of critics-- people whose intent is to substantiate their taste by rational or logical means. Art is therefoer created for an informed audience -- critics and other informed persons who are intent on establishing a crical rather than a subjective basis for their judgements. Here also we have the question of what constitutes modernist taste as opposed to taste in general. My understanding of modernist criteria is it is that works which challenge taste ( or conventional form or means) are given priority and this challenge reside in judging within its historical as well as cultural and social contexts.Danto's statement concerning the role of taste for modernist art presupposes a taste for confrontation. Once again we have a specific rather than a general audience. We also have a situation in which judgment rather than experience is privileged GE >I did not suggest that he was proposing anything about imperialist >economics. What I said was that his views on African art are in stark >contradiction with your statement:>>It is not art in the western sense and >for the most part is viewed as such due to Western imperialism,<< >which they (his views) clearly are. If he wanted to say that African art >is not >viewed as art in the Western sense, that is precisely what he would have said, >not “how easily we accept that the art of Africa rubs elbows with that of >Paris >or Milan.” I don’t think that he is guilty of any sort “up is down” and >“left is >right” Big-Brother-style doublespeak. He was saying that Westerners do view >African art as *art*. This is too grabbled --I said African Tribal artifacts are not art , my point is that Danto replicates the ususal western imperialist humanist view -- which is a view that is derived from the practices of clAiming and decontextualizing the cultural artifacts of others by meansof aesthetization. In other words Danto is acting acritically and unconsciously here. In that he does not acknoledging that this assertion is one that reflects our ngrained >>practice of aestheticizing and clainming the cultures of others > SAUL __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 28 13:26:20 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id NAA26595 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:26:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA04601 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:26:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA19824 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA19815 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA07555 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.69 (srq0f.netline.net [205.160.7.69]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA14348 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:17:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34A638C1.4091@netline.net> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:32:23 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Danto and taste Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O Since Saul Ostrow has posted the private e-mail that I sent to him in response to a private e-mail that he had sent to me, I thought that I might as well include a copy of mine in its original, uninterrupted form... > > > Hi Saul, You asked: >Can you give an example of this notion> that social and historical >criteria are built on individual experiences < rather than an " >individual"s" experience being the product of often conflicting social >(and here I will ad technological) and cultural criteria. Are you sure that you want to argue that there could be such things as social and historical criteria without individual experiences? That just seems silly. Of course an individual’s experience is influenced by conflicting social, cultural, and technological criteria. But this doesn’t negate the idea that social and historical criteria are built on individual experiences as you have implied. S.O.: >The phiilosopy of any philosopher or the theory of any theorist is the >construction of a generalization based on individual experience but it >is no one individuals experience So you agree? You can’t have it both ways. S.O.: >your analogy can not give equal significance to each variation that its >materials are adapted to, Nor should it. S.O. (on the Danto quotation): >Two things I find no reference to taste here as a determinant but only that >certain history which at one time made issue of art not art is over. I thought the quotation was pretty clear, but perhaps you needed greater context. How’s this for direct: “Modernist art is art defined by taste, and created essentially for persons of taste, specifically for critics.” (From Danto’s _ After the End of Art _ p. 111) I hope that you are not going to try to argue that *this* isn’t in contradiction with your original statements, such as, >Good and bad art has little or nothing to do with individual taste. S.O.: >He does not propose that htis economy outside of imperialist practices >travels in the other direction-- he's just acknoledging how ingrained our >practice of aestheticizing and clainming the cultures of others has become I did not suggest that he was proposing anything about imperialist economics. What I said was that his views on African art are in stark contradiction with your statement: >It is not art in the western sense and for the most part is viewed as such >do to Western imperialism, which they (his views) clearly are. If he wanted to say that African art is not viewed as art in the Western sense, that is precisely what he would have said, not “how easily we accept that the art of Africa rubs elbows with that of Paris or Milan.” I don’t think that he is guilty of any sort “up is down” and “left is right” Big-Brother-style doublespeak. He was saying that Westerners do view African art as *art*. Glenn English __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 28 08:50:50 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id IAA12229 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:50:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA15354 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:50:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id HAA15430 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id HAA15412 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from nefeli.forthnet.gr (nefeli.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.20]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA04052 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:24:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp-mar15.ath.forthnet.gr (ppp-mar15.ath.forthnet.gr [194.219.200.115]) by nefeli.forthnet.gr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA08037 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:22:41 +0200 (EET) Received: by ppp-mar15.ath.forthnet.gr with Microsoft Mail id <01BD139C.6B4BD640@ppp-mar15.ath.forthnet.gr>; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:25:17 +0200 Message-ID: <01BD139C.6B4BD640@ppp-mar15.ath.forthnet.gr> From: dd To: "'aesthetics@indiana.edu'" Subject: Aesthetics: Concentrate to dispersion Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:16:51 +0200 Encoding: 12 TEXT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dd Status: O e-mailed by Dimos Dimitriou 1. Immerge yourself in at least two common contests 2. Act directly in these contests 3. Think about that others could immerge to these actions 4. Act being in a concentrated dispersion, being both actor and spectators of the action 5. Immerge to more spectators' actions 6. The more dispersing action generates the more concentration for the contest's conditions 7. Redo the passes from 1 to 6 until under the Dispersion State, you concentrate to the contests as action's fields As happens in art __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Dec 28 15:47:33 1997 Return-Path: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by othello.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with ESMTP id PAA05745 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA28829 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA23116 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:49:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA23109 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from tesla.netline.net (root@tesla.netline.net [204.117.219.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA10870 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.160.7.69 (srq06.netline.net [205.160.7.46]) by tesla.netline.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA18146 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:35:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34A65904.3E7B@netline.net> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:50:14 +0000 From: Glenn English Organization: Colorevolution X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Danto and taste Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Glenn English Status: O GE (me): >Of course an individual’s experience is influenced by conflicting social, >cultural, and technological criteria. But this doesn’t negate the idea >that social and historical criteria are built on individual experiences >as you have implied. Saul Ostrow: >Are you sure that you want to argue that the world begins anew with each >individual and that we are not conditioned to be receptive to certain >experiences orto judge them as being of greater value or lesser value? Is this some new form of bizarro-world ping-pong? ;^) How could I have been more clear that our experiences are influenced by the generalized criteria that we create from them? S.O.: >of course we can have it both ways, My point being what is formulated is >not the experience of an individual but an individuals formulation of an >experience that does not exist except in generalized terms. I assume that you don’t mean what is said here because what is said here is illogical. Specifically, “what is formulated is not the experience of an individual but an individuals formulation” is pure gibberish. An individual’s formulation of an experience *is* experienced by that individual. S.O.: >your analogy can not give equal significance to each variation that its >materials are adapted to, Me: >Nor should it. S.O.: >yet you implied every brick was of equal importance I did no such thing. I said: >A brick home may be greater than the sum of its bricks in the Gestalt sense, >but the individual bricks remain *significant* to the home that consists of their >specific orientation. Likewise, individual experience remains intrinsic to any >social practice. If I wanted to say “equal importance,” that is just what I would have said. To be significant does not make a thing equally significant with other things any more than a thing’s largeness implies an equal largeness with all other things. S.O.: >This is too grabbled Since “grabbled” makes no grammatical sense in this usage (“grabble” is a verb), I’m assuming that you meant “garbled”. This gave me a pretty good chuckle. I think it says something about the argument you have presented. In the words of a million desk plaques, “you’ve got to get yourself organizized.” :^) For example, concerning Danto in your most recent post you stated (somewhat incoherently): >Danto is acting acritic